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This is a topic that I’m currently thinking about a lot. This is going to be quite vulnerable, so if you as the reader don’t have the mental capacity for that right now, this is your warning to stop reading.
In my previous relationship, my partner was definitely the more experienced of us. He was already well-traveled and well-connected to important people at a young age, has many highly educated and successful relatives (whereas mine are formerly poor / now working class), is very ambitious and a natural leader and has held many important positions at our university, his community and at work. He could “show me the world”, so to speak, and always had advice or insight, no matter the issue. He often challenged me to get out of my comfort zone and to dream bigger. His status and wealth seemed to open up new opportunities and a higher standard of living for me. In many ways, they did.
My current partner is much closer in status to me, and his horizon doesn’t really extend beyond mine. He is not someone who can “teach me how the world works”, he is not a guiding figure or a role model in that regard (he has admirable skills, but they do not belong in the category of “how to achieve conventional success”). He has his own sh*t that needs attention, he is not an expert on the issues I am facing, and he can’t do much more than hold space for my feelings when stuff gets difficult — which he does.
So this is where I’m conflicted: I was suffering from the power differential in my previous relationship, and often felt emotionally unfulfilled. Sometimes it felt like a business more than a relationship. But we all know that romance is overrated, feelings are fleeting and long-term stability and security must often be achieved through pragmatic trade-offs. And to his credit, he was committed to the relationship even in the presence of emotional trouble. Maybe I was stupid to prioritize romance and emotional support over “hard facts” like earning potential, life experience and status. Sometimes I still beat myself up for breaking up with him, because I feel like I squandered a chance to be “elevated” into a social class that is quite closed off to outsiders and where only a lucky few can get access to through their own work. It sucks, but for many people, especially women, social mobility is achieved through close relationships with more powerful people (which often translates to hypergamy). Btw, I don’t need to hear that I can “have it all” by myself if I just work hard enough; I know that’s theoretically possible, but there’s still many barriers involved that I experienced firsthand.
On the other hand, I was frequently unhappy with the role of the “inferior” partner. I always felt like I was a project, that I still had so much to learn that I’d never catch up. I had a hard time deriving a sense of self-worth from a place outside of academic or career achievement. My ex always accused me of having a “victim mentality” when I talked about barriers I faced, which felt unfair to me, but I do know that complaining about your life and not changing anything isn’t going to get you anywhere. In this world, achievement IS important, and maybe I SHOULD have focused on catching up. I know this, and yet being constantly interrogated about my long-term life strategy did nothing to help me, it just made me more afraid of failure, afraid of the future. I realize it must have been hard for him to be with someone who was, in his eyes, “underachieving” and “not living up to their potential”, but I sometimes feel that I would have deserved more compassion, which I am also questioning because sometimes we do need some tough love. My current relationship feels a lot more supportive to me, but maybe it's just "enabling" me?
So now the jury is out on whether I have my priorities wrong, and should approach the decision of whom to date from a more businesslike perspective, or I still have a father wound from having a deadbeat dad and am foolishly looking for a man to “save” me. It further confuses me that FDS encourages women to go after men who have lots of money and connections that they are willing to share with their partners. I am now quite unsure of whether I (should) want someone to guide and lead me, or whether I need someone who will just hold my hand. I usually have a strong opinion on this, which I've frequently voiced on here, but I've recently started to question it.
I am obviously still going back and forth on my own judgment here, because sadly I’ve not felt like I can trust myself for a long time now. I’d be happy to hear some perspectives. Not to tell me what to think, but just to give my brain some new directions since I feel like I’m going in circles at the moment.
Absolutely none. Men are not our leaders, and when you give them a chance to lead, they will isolate you from friends and family so they can exert control. This is a fact. There's a reason FDS did a podcast about female-led relationships. There's just a lot less violence and fucked up shit when women are in charge. And we don't have to be in their face to be in charge if we're going to let them have sex with us and potentially get us pregnant. Dating is on the woman's terms, and things are imbalanced if men get a say "romantically" or however we want to pretend they can relate to us.
I'm not a child. I do not require someone to lead me or be a stand-in career coach.
The way you describe the relationship with your previous partner doesn't sound balanced or ideal and comes across as quite outdated... like he is raising you.
In the situation you're describing with your ex, this is what I would struggle with the most as well.
I like a partner than can be a leader, that can take charge, that knows where he's going and what he wants. But it doesn't mean I want him to lead me. Can he be helpful and give advice and guidance sometimes? Of course, and so can I when he needs it. But if it's only ever one sided, if it defines the relationship, if it turns into a long-term mentorship in any way, I'm out. This is what I would expect from a teacher, a coach, a mentor or father figure, not my partner. And in the case of a teacher/coach/etc it's only supposed to apply to one specific area. In a partnership, I do my thing and he does his. We can both be leaders in our own lives without a hierarchy. I've always felt like it was a very difficult balance to achieve, especially while dealing with powerful men (and especially if they know you're coming from a less privileged background).
I believe that we shouldn't have to choose between being in a partnership with someone powerful and proactive but controlling and with a tendency to look down on us, or being with a passive partner that has no ambition and whose horizon doesn't extend beyond ours, like you said in your post. I believe that a good balance is possible, just like I believe that there are HVM out there, rare as they may be.
Vetting helps: I can't stand feeling like a man is assuming a teacher role in his relationship to me, it feels patronizing, even if it seems like it's coming from a good place. It's also very telling how common this is... most men who have tried it with me weren't in any way superior to me, they just want to feel like they were.
I don't want to ramble but long story short, I would suggest not compromizing on your standards, and not feeling like you have to settle. Just try to find someone who respects you enough not to act like he's above you.
In a relationship with 2 people, there are three 'entities': 1. You, 2. him, and; 3. the relationship itself. When I think of a man 'leading', it is about him leading: the relationship. That does not mean steam-rolling the relationship, controlling, nor dominating the relationship. It means leading. With love, kindness, ability to receive feedback, and with respect and consent. True leadership is a dynamic force. It does not mean he leads/dictates me in my life, or builds/'fixes' me up to be his 'ideal' woman, if I am somehow not already that, in his mind.
Now, do we want our partners ot be nurturing of us personally? Kind, compassionate, encouraging? YEs. But for me that's as my partner and friend. Not as someone 'above' nor 'below' me. This is extremely rare I know, a unicorn... But this is what I want. The relationship dynamic of course hsould have love and kindness, and from time to time someone may have to pull more weight. But not in a parentified way, imo.
It's interesting reading your situation and what you're sitting with. Obviously there is a lot of nuance to it and so I can't speak directly to your experience. What was very interesting to me was reading about how you felt that you were somehow 'behind' your ex, and how it somehow made you feel inferiour and like you 'should' be doing more. It made me think of the last guy I was involved with - our ambitions in life were rather imbalanced. However in that situation I was the more ambitious one, and I sense he felt how you describe you did, in some ways.
I think ambition levels need to match, or at least be complementary. Or, if they're different, they need to be (truly) accepted, in both directions. But I think the latter is not really compatible in practice, in the longer term, personally. Though perhaps there are exceptions, as there to everything. Do you feel like you ar edoing too much leading in your current situation and he's not taking enough initiative?
(That kind of thing does my head in, personally. And yes, puts me in my 'masculine' OR I withdraw b/c I don't find it attractive. But that's me )
I can't give a clear answer because it is a question I sometimes struggle with myself. I am more successful than my partner from an academic perspective, and I am more professionally driven. I have been looking for answers and I think the sociologist Eva Illouz has some interesting perspectives. She describes how capitalism is permeating our relationships, increasing our emotional uncertainty and making us think about people in economic terms (optimization, constant comparison with other people, perceived traits in others that are marginally better, etc.). While I would like to have high standards, there is something I dislike about judging other people in the same way I would judge a product or a pokemon in a videogame. It eventually makes me judge myself in the same stern light, and that makes me unhappy, anxious and guilty about whether I would be able to do more. Is striving for the most success possible in all areas of our life self-improvment or self-explotation? Philosopher Byung Chul Han also has some books that make me question myself in this area.
Moreover, isn't also ambitious to disregard, to a point, external marks of success and strive for things like living in contact with nature or having time to devote to family and hobbies? Some of my most remarkable moments of exquisite happiness happen while I am walking in the countryside, watching a sunset, picking wild berries, reading and talking with my family and friends. I feel very satisfied when I feel on top of my work, but also I can't help thinking, aren't those moments of exquisite happiness a most rewarding form of success, for myself and for my partner?
At the same time, sometimes I can't help judging my boyfriend a bit for not being more ambitious in his professional life. And I also feel guilty about it. Should he be more ambitious, should I be less ambitious? Are those enriching differences or incompatibilities? I struggle to give a definitive answer. Meanwhile, I try to keep valuing the ways in which he makes my life better: his generosity, his emotional support, our shared hobbies,... I admire how he admires my intelligence (something I find to be rare in men, who aren't usually turned on by women's thoughts) while helping me to see that I am valuable beyond my achievements. In a way, maybe he saves me from the worst parts of my ambition.
Just because he lifts you up, that's no excuse to make you feel small. Just because he can emotionally support you and make you feel warm doesn't mean he can't help you with practical or tangible goals. Would you ever neglect your partner in either of these areas? I don't know you, but I'm guessing you probably would not.
Your ex sounds like the Fifty Shades of Gray guy. (Gag me--dumbest book ever.) I had a boss like this. The main thing was stroking his ego. Narcissists also like to mold you as miniature versions of themselves. The limit to watch for is when it becomes less about him being good/helpful and more about you being inadequate.
I can't deal with emotional-support-only guys. They can't give you advice or help in emergencies or when it hits the fan. They also gaslight you and accuse you of being over-emotional when you panic in emergencies because no one is helping you.
It sucks subconsciously seeking parental figures in guys you date! Ask me how I know.
My question is, why is ambition important to you? IS it important to you, or is it something you feel you should be doing?
And does FDS have any culpability for your answer? There is a relentless drive to level up, but sometimes you can choose to be okay with a trait just the way it is, you know? The important thing is to look at it and decide whether or not you are happy with it. Don't measure your life with someone else's yardstick.
It sounds like you are wondering if happiness is less important that achievement and status. I say it isn't: we only get one life, and you don't want to spend it being miserable for the approbation of people who think of you as less than themselves.
Okay, I'm purposefully not reading other comments before I write mine so I can be equally vulnerable. I also acknowledge this answer may not be entirely "FDS". I also don't think all (maybe most) of this has an "answer" other than you deciding what you want. This is also gonna be a bit rambling and not really have a conclusion, but I think it serves your purpose of food for thought.
Some useful context: I grew up upper middle class, went to private university paid by my parents, have a job that puts me in the UMC for my age bracket and a masters in econ.
My partner grew up somewhere between "upper poor" and "lower working class" in rural eastern Kentucky (if you've seen the show Justified...that). His family was also a clusterfuck of scrotes and women hopelessly trying to fix them. He did farm work during high school and took 7 years to get through college because he was also working in construction. Sold his soul in sales for a while to save up to do an MBA, and has been working in the nonprofit world since but making most of his money in real estate.
So as far as "equality" we mostly balance. I "win" on family background, we are equal in education, and he is currently winning by a lot in terms of current wealth and current social connections. The wealth and social connections he isn't winning because he's more capable or smarter, he just (1) cares about doing everything possible to never have money issues again a lot more than me, (2) is willing to live a much more stressful life than me, and (3) is more extroverted and his job kinda necessitates more networking than mine sitting behind a computer and doing Excel all day.
I do like that he can "show me the world" both via his current budget and social connections, but also in terms of knowledge he gained in the first 25 years of his life that I just didn't. His accumulated knowledge is vast and that's really attractive. Most things I have questions about and don't feel like googling I can just ask him. I also do agree that men who are more ambitious at life in general would be correlated with men who will take initiative on planning dates and such.
He does tend to end up "leading" in daily life in a lot of ways, mostly because I just don't have strong opinions about a lot of daily life things. And I do ask him for guidance a lot, especially on house stuff and investments, because he does just know more. Importantly though, he doesn't try to lead my overall trajectory in life. He does end up guiding me in the "how". And honestly I like that dynamic. It seems to me the other options are the positions being switched (then I feel like someone's mom), or the positions being exactly equal and we're butting heads all the time.
On the victim mentality thing - this is why my "type" is guys who weren't born successful but ended up that way through their own work. I went to some private high school and then college with a lot of guys who were UMC or above, and almost all of them still had victim mentality about something and it was stupid. I've also dated men much more successful than my current partner, who were "much more" because they had a higher starting point. They often lacked practical life skills and were super out of touch.
One of the things I do find quite attractive about him as a mate is that he has the pros of both. He understands systemic barriers but also knows the power of hard work and determination. He can "upgrade" my life in a lot of ways, but is still grounded.
I think hypergamy is a high risk/high reward strategy compared to assortative mating. The current hypergamous situation I find myself in works in part because I don't actually care about being more economically or socially successful than I already am and I've never in my life had to worry about that, it's just a nice bonus. So I'm not all that invested in it.
If I really wanted to be I could probably be married to 2 of the "fuck you money" guys I've dated, that probably would've been the better business decision. As in, even with a strict prenup I could take advantage of networking and get farther than I would otherwise. But the romance and intellectual connection was not there. I've been to those swanky charity dinners and in those penthouse apartments, and having a couple panorama photos on my phone of Lake Michigan is cool but it feels incredibly lonely very quickly.
So I don't think the trick (to hypergamy) is to "have it all" on your own - obivously that's practically easier with someone giving you a leg up. But if you do actually want that, you don't have to get it "all" on your own first, but at least "enough" that you are truly happy where you are and therefore have the ability to shrug and walk away.
But also decide how much material success you actually want. I don't think I've met one truly wealthy person who is actually happy and peaceful in their soul. Getting from the 1st percentile to like the 85th, money does go a long way to buying happiness and security, but beyond that the returns begin to diminish. (Truly wealthy meaning 0.1%. My partner is 1%, which I guess I would call "rich", and given the whole philanthrophic sector he's linked into is the "broke" guy of his acquaintance/social circle. They're all unhappy and insufferable and have helped him decide there's no way he's trying to get there. I've also not met a single wealthy man who isn't also an adulterer.)
Editting to add: my partner has never looked down on me for being "lazy" or "resting on my laurels". If anything he appreciates that I'm not also stressed out about ambition. That was actually a major reason why he and his ex wife didn't work out. They would've been very successful business partners, because they were both the same that way. But there was just no balance in the relationship, just two people in a stress circlejerk. Like she's awesome and a badass, but I think they were compatible when they were both starting out, just the stress circle eventually reached a peak.
i believe the best, healthiest, most vital relationships are the ones with the most equality. that can look one of a million different ways.
you, and none of us, are clay to be molded. if we seek advice, that's one thing. but ultimately we have to make our own decisions, and i believe we are best served by listening to the wisdom of our bodies.
i speak this as i sit with a back injury from overuse and not resting. i was exhausted and pushed through last week and i am paying for it now. at some point, i can't argue with my body. i can't do certain things: i have to back off and slowly reform my limitations, slowly regenerate, refortify and then gradually expand again.
i believe our bodies are always giving us messages in regards to other people. you left your "elevated" ex for a reason, reasons i bet your body felt but maybe you couldn't always articulate.
even the most empathic of us cannot 100% feel what another peron is feeling at the exact same moment. this is why we cannot 100% trust another person to know what's best for us. we must follow our gut instincts. we must follow our energy. we all start from a different place, we all have a different path. we're all holding space for and witnessing each other.
i believe the best leaders--true leaders--make it their job to make sure others have what they need to self-actualize and self-express...and that doesn't always have to be monetary or material.
A partner shouldn’t be ‘disappointed’ in you unless you’ve hurt them. What you’ve described with your previous partner doesn’t sound healthy and yes, it sounds like a father-daughter relationship.
For me...a lot. I'm basically where I am today because of the men I dated. My first boyfriend convinced me to get a technical degree when I thought there was no way I would be able to handle it. He tutored me and helped me with homework and studying for exams. Now I have a very high paying job and only because I didn't go into the "softer" degree that I was planning on doing (and that my parents encouraged me to do). I broke up with him because the relationship got kind of boring to me and also at some point I no longer needed help.
My second ex helped me write five first author papers at the top conference of my field. He literally came up with the ideas and gave me bite-sized projects and then put me as first author to help me build a career. Now the papers are forever part of my resume.
Now I'm starting my own company and my boyfriend helps me with his connections for fundraising and also technical advice.
I don't care about being "inferior." I only care about improving.
So yeah, I do care if my boyfriend gives me guidance. I don't think that necessarily means they will start being controlling, I think you can just run at the first drop of controlling behavior.