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WARNING: These are HANDBOOK POSTS -- WRITTEN A LONG TIME AGO by some great women with great thoughts and deemed as handbook worthy by FDS mods for a reason. If you feel triggered or disagree with something -- THE SMART THING TO DO IS TO MOVE ON. Agree to disagree and go on your merry way. Stop trying to start bullsh*t in the comment section because I have no patience to deal with you.
Originally posted in FDS subreddit. All rights reserved to the original writer.
It's About More Than Paying For Dates.
I should open by saying that I really enjoy this community. I find it so positive and empowering, and even though I'm married, I come here regularly to remind myself to keep on with my Queen shit. I used to put up with a lot from mediocre men because I didn't know any better. I thought my standards were high. They were not.
It wasn't until I met my husband that I finally realized the difference between a LV and HV man. I thought the guys I was dating were HV because they paid for dates or helped out or spent time with my family. The truth is that ANYBODY can pay for a date, but that doesn't make someone HV. Sometimes LV behaviour and HV behaviour can look the same, until you look closer:
A LVM will pick you up from the bar after you go out drinking with your friends. He'll complain about it and whine that he doesn't want to drive them home. He'll ask you if you were hitting on guys and he may blow up your phone while you're out with passive-aggressive bullshit. He'll make it clear that picking you up was a "favour" and you should be grateful and that it won't happen all the time. You'll have to remind him that he agreed to it, and he'll be annoyed that he had to take 30 minutes out of his evening of gaming to come and get you.
A HVM will pick you up from the bar after you go drinking with your friends. In fact, he'll volunteer immediately when you tell him your plans for Saturday night. He'll want to make sure your friends get home safely. He'll respond if you text him but will mostly encourage you to go have fun. If he's early, he'll let you know that he's waiting but doesn't expect you to stop partying the minute he shows up, or he'll pop in to buy everyone a round, even though he isn't drinking. If you get distracted and leave a bit late, he might be concerned, but he'll be understanding because hey - it happens! He'll want to know if you had fun. He'll make it clear that he was happy to take 30 minutes out of his evening to support you.
A LVM will help around the house. He'll need you to tell him exactly what to do and when to do it, though, because he doesn't really care. When you do tell him, he'll get annoyed. He will probably forget, and when you point it out to him, he'll get pissed that you're "nagging". He'll do a bad job and when you ask him to do it better, he'll have a tantrum and proclaim that he's never doing it again. You'll do 80% of the housework but he'll claim you split it "pretty evenly". He will make fun of your standards and belittle you for being "so uptight". If you suggest hiring a cleaning service, he'll freak out at the cost and insinuate that you're lazy.
A HVM will help around the house. He doesn't need you to tell him exactly what to do and when to do it, but he may check with you if you have certain priorities. He recognizes when he's being lazy, apologizes, and tries to do better. If he doesn't know how to do something, he owns it and tries to improve. If you ask him to do something he usually does it; if he forgets and you remind him, he feels regret and gets it done. He may not personally care about getting the housework done a specific way, but if it's important to you then he makes it important to him. You're still probably going to do 60% of the housework (or maybe he's a unicorn and you really are splitting it 50/50) but if you ask him he will immediately acknowledge everything you do. He will try to take on other tasks in order to make the division of labour more fair. He'll suggest and happily pay for a housekeeper, because he knows you are not a maid.
A LVM will spend time with your family. He'll complain that he doesn't want to go and will be miserable while he's there. He'll try to leave ASAP. He doesn't make any effort to be pleasant with your family and if you ask him to bring something he will balk at spending $20 on a nice bottle of wine. Afterwards, he will make it extremely clear that this was another "favour", and you owe him, and yes - he IS keeping score.
A HVM will spend time with your family. He'll be warm and pleasant with them, even if he doesn't particularly like them. He'll offer to help cook or do dishes, ask what he can bring because he wants to get something nice, and won't rush you to leave. He will tell you (privately) if he has concerns about their toxic behaviour, because he cares about you. He expects to go with you to most family events because that's how you behave in a loving relationship. He makes it clear that this isn't a favour and he doesn't keep score. He thinks he's doing the bare minimum.
Nobody is perfect, of course. My husband makes mistakes and gets lazy sometimes, but his baseline standards are so much higher that "screwing up" takes on a whole new meaning. In the past, my boyfriends "screwed up" by, say, 'accidentally' 'letting' a girl give them a blowjob in her car (true story!). My husband "screws up" by bringing home the wrong flavour of chip when I've had a bad day, or forgetting a dish when he's loading the dishwasher. It's embarrassing to admit that I didn't always know the difference. Learn from my mistakes!
SayNad's comment:
The thing is, when a man actually likes you -- it is going to be pretty damn obvious in every actions, words, thoughts -- everything out of him. Because that's just how it is when someone is in love. You don't fight -- you disagree and find a way to solve those problems. He will want to make you happy -- because when you are happy, he is happy. He hate seeing you in pain, being sad -- so he does his best to cheer you up.
Patriarchy and the society we live in have brainwashed us to think that toxic behaviors from men are normal -- and even when the man claim to "love" you -- he would want to hurt you "sometimes" because you... forgot his packed lunch or some shit. We live in a toxic society that romanticize toxic behavior and call it "true love".
NO, NO THAT'S NOT HOW THIS WORKS, THAT'S NOT HOW ANY OF THIS WORKS GODDAMIT.
The handbook posts project.
Anyone who wants to contribute to this project, please puts [Handbook Posts:] in their title so there's a distinction. Also tag @SayNad so that I can find them.
This used to be one of my most enjoyed posts on the old subreddit because all of the three examples are so relevant to me. My ex was the definition of "HV on paper, decent in keeping up the good boyfriend facade and even genuinely loving if he felt like it, but often resentful and score-keeping". It's sometimes hard to pin-point because men like this will actually do quite a lot for you. In some ways my ex did more for me than any other person ever did or currently does. But these men will also rub your nose in it in subtle or not-so-subtle ways, making you question whether they actually did it out of love. My current boyfriend (so far) never leaves a shred of doubt in my mind that he just likes to see me happy, period. Some examples to illustrate:
Housework
A LV way to deal with chores, like my ex did, is very much like the example in the post: he does things, but begrudingly. He insists you're impossible to please just because you like stuff clean and organized. If he ever lifts his finger, he expects rounds of applause. He liked to play the "you do this better than me" card, but never took advice or guidance from me either. He claimed he wanted to do things "his way", which usually meant not doing them at all.
I don't live with my current bf (nor do I plan on doing so for now) but I do spend a lot of time at his place and he at mine. I am aware some men do "turn" once they move in with a female partner, so I'm not passing final judgment here, but in general, he never complains about chores. Just gets on with doing them. I help with cooking if I feel like it, but I don't have to. I'm a better cook but he is very observant and learns quickly, always remembering to prepare stuff the way I prefer instead of insisting on doing it his way. When he is at my place or we're visiting family/friends, he always helps, even if there is zero expectation to do so. He doesn't draw attention to it, neither does he expect praise.
Money
My ex is loaded, always has been. He loved to say what is his was mine, and he did spoil me with gifts and vacations. Anything I wanted, he had his credit card at the ready. Sounds HV, right? Well... Money means nothing without a genuinely generous attitude attached to it. When you have money, it's very easy to spend it. It was no effort to him. Some things he gave me were indeed very thoughtful and made me feel loved, but other things he gave me because it gave him leverage. He used the fact that he made more money and paid more expenses against me multiple times. He claimed I wasn't enough of a modern woman because I let him pay. When I pointed out the other things I brought to the relationship (that I had to do this is a red flag in an of itself), he said it wasn't enough and developed enormous expectations of my contributions to the household. He regularly whined about the "weight on his shoulders" because he was expected to pay for most things, even though he was the one who willingly and offensively took on this responsibility in the first place (he was the one who insisted on raising our standard of living).
Current bf is nowhere near as wealthy, but he has more of a sharing mindset than my ex ever had. He doesn't guard his ressources. He hasn't given me huge lavish gifts so far (which wouldn't be very wise in his current financial situation anyway) but he very regularly gets me small things he knows I like. Rarely comes to my house empty-handed, even if it's "just" my favorite ice cream. The reason why he hasn't tons of money to spend right now is actually because he was very generous towards his ex, who wasn't able to work for a long time, and he also supported her for years even after they split. They bought an apartment just for her with him contributing the majority of the cost, he also had it furnished. They used to have horses because she wanted to, which was also a big expense. Was it a bit naive of him to take on so many expenses when he knew it would hinder his ability to save up larger sums of money? Definitely, and he knows it. Does it show that he is willing to make substantial sacrifices for the one he loves? Absolutely. All the things my ex gave me barely made a dent in his account, my current bf is the type to give almost everything he has. The first time we went out to eat he actually asked me if I would "allow him" to treat me. He considers it a privilege to be able to give and share. It's never framed as a burden or unfair expectation. Another big tell is that he is generous and giving towards everyone, not just me. He is happiest when everyone else around him is taken care of.
Feminism/misogyny
Ex loved to claim he was a feminist. Regarding money and housework, he often said the right things, but it was obvious he didn't fully believe in them (see above). When it was convenient, he reverted back to the old "I am the man and I am in power". It always seemed like he was challenging the patriarchy on the surface. He acknowledged it and the negative effects on women's lives, loved to give big speeches about it, frequently read and sent me articles and podcasts about feminism. But when push came to shove, he didn't want to relinquish control and power at all. He was also a typical Nice Guy who complained that he didn't get enough praise for being SoO ProGresSivE and envied men who lived a more "adventurous" lifestlye (e.g. partying and hooking up). Nevermind that he also cherry-picked libfem talking points that benefitted him, mainly sex positive bullshit. He claimed I was "too conservative" and "vanilla" in bed and regularly brought up the topic of open relationships. Constantly objectified me and other women, always nagged me for sex. He also loved to "debate" me on feminist topics. It drove me mad.
Current bf never calls himself a feminist, but he's definitely an ally based on his actions and attitude. He respects and supports women (in general, not just me), he is aware of the struggles women face that men don't, he calls out shitty male behavior (openly, not just in private), he uses the fact that he's taken more seriously per default to draw attention to the people who need it (for example, highlighting things other people said, telling a group of people to make room for someone else to have a place to sit, etc.). He values monogamy and never acts like men are somehow "trapped" by relationships or marriage, he actually has little respect for men who can't hold down a serious relationship. Never participated in hookup culture. When I talk about my experiences as a woman or feminism, he listens empathically, doesn't doubt or correct me, doesn't "not all men" me, doesn't go "but what about the men". Doesn't sexually objectify me. Doesn't expect a medal for being romantic and loving, he just enjoys it and has no inclination towards any toxic masculine ideals.
Family/friends/social activities
Much like in the example above, my ex did go with me to all important social events, but he always complained, felt like he didn't receive enough attention, negged and criticized me in front of everyone, and didn't really take the time to engage with the people who are important to me. Never in almost 9 years ever gave any of them a gift. Did not make too much of an effort to include me in his social circle, I basically had to fend for myself. He was judgmental towards my friends and often annoyed when I prioritized them, while also insisting on his cringe-y "bro nights". Most of his social relationships were very superficial. He envied how close I was to my friends and family.
Current bf couldn't wait for us to meet our respective families, immediately made a great connection to my social circle, proudly showed me off to his, brings gifts, takes an active interest in the people in my life. He feels like he is lucky when he gets to spend quality time with my family, it's not a chore to him or something he tries to get out of. He regularly says he would have regretted not having attended X event because he knows we only get so much time with the people we love. He has meaningful relationships to people other than me and makes them a priority. His family and friends were also very welcoming right off the bat. He shields me from anyone in the extended circles that might be annoying or off-putting and doesn't seek out their company by himself either (sometimes you just can't help some people being there).
Acts of service
Ex used to make a big deal about having to drive everywhere because I didn't have my license (I lived in the big city and didn't need a car). He gave me scalp massages or back rubs as a special treat, often expecting sexual favors in return. Some things he did were truly sweet and never used as bargaining chips, but many others were. He was often cute with me in private, but rarely in public (he eased up a little bit late into the relationship). Sometimes he actually smothered me with over-the-top gestures which left me in a position where I had to be grateful or reciprocate, even if it made me uncomfortable.
Current bf showers me with love and praise anytime, not just when we're alone. Always actively makes sure I'm comfortable and have everything I need. When he notices I like something, it makes him want to do it more instead of triggering a "but what do I get?" reflex. Does "masculine" duties without complaining, because he knows it's easier for him. Does things for me while still respecting my agency, never overbearing or making my decisions for me.
To summarize:
May look HV but isn't: giving you tons of shit but keeping tabs on it, hopping on board with feminism but using it against you, acting like he wants an equal relationship but still putting the burden of housework on you, providing you with traditionally masculine services such as driving but constantly whining about the expectations put on men, taking on lots of responsibilities but using them to make you indebted to him, being an agreeable and nice person but constantly feeling cheated out of the things he feels he deserves in return, being intelligent and educated but always turning everything into a debate.
Actually HV: giving you everything he is able to give (even when it's not flashy or expensive), listening more than talking, priotizing empathy and kindness over displays of intellect and power, taking your comfort and your side of things into account at all times, being aware of gender dynamics in our society and using them to your benefit instead of his, doing things for you because he wants to. It's not just about quantity (of things, energy, time). People who are calculating and manipulating may sometimes seem like giving you more in comparison, but that's because a) they make sure you never forget every little thing they ever did for you and b) because they do many of these things in expectation of a reward, not because they have the genuine capacity and desire to do so, making them feel burnt out and resentful in the long run. Actually HV people have a realistic idea of what they can and cannot provide, and possess healthy boundaries around their time and energy, so you can be sure that the things they do give, they give freely and happily. Beware people who go out of their way for you but only because they expect you to extend their boundaries for them in return.