Need help with the argument about prostitution

Gail Dines and Elly Arrow do a good job breaking the pro-prostitution arguments down.

The purchase of sex removes consent as a concept and makes rape a crime of theft.

Prostitution is the only job where the provider is actively at risk of being harmed through STD's or forced/rough sex. Maiming from rough sex is it's own porn category, prolapse and infections are fetishized. No amount of accessible healthcare will make contracting UTI's or STD's or a prolapsed anus healthy. If asbestos exposure is considered intolerable for a safe work environment HOW CAN SEX WORK POSSIBLE BE A SAFE WORK ENVIRONMENT WITH THE RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH BODILY FLUIDS

Prostitution affects all women- which is different to other professions as seen in Europe's red light districts that children are approached by wannabe John's bc if one woman is for sale, all women are for sale.

There is no dignity in prostitution. What other job requires the exposition and intimate exposure that prostitution does? Prostitution is not an exchange of skills or services in the way a masseuse or chiropractor is. And there is VERY LITTLE possibility to 'change careers' and move on from prostitution. A masseuse's future job prospects won't be affected if she trains in another field.

Prostitution is inextricably linked to human trafficking. If you require a perfect world with no pimps extorting prostitutes into drug addiction to further abuse them- then how can you make that argument with a straight face. We also need a perfect world to live in space- no one is selling space fuel for your future space car.

Also fem_solitaire, I noticed in your post that the harms of prostitution you list are stigma and persecution against prostitutes. But those are libfem talking points. Yes, our cultures hate prostitutes, and thats a problem. We should treat them as victims who need help, and then provide them with resources. But the libfems who dominate this conversation will frame it as if, if we could only stop stigmatizing prostitutes then all of the problems with prostitution would be solved.

But heres the thing - we should TOTALLY stigmatize prostitution, because it's bad. And we should SUPER stigmatize the buying and selling of women, because pimps and johns are violent misogynist criminals.

The problem isnt really stigma. Its the violence and eploitation. Remeber that. Dont let the libfems sanitize this issue for you. You cant separate the violence and exploitation out of prostitution. Thats what prostitution IS. And thats why it's bad.

Coercing a person to give you a massage or to make you a hamburger aren't specifically defined crimes. Coercing a person to have sex that they dont want to have is the crime of rape. Because we know that sex is substantively different from other things we call "labor" on a visceral level.

As you're finding, it's hard to make concrete arguments, because come on, we ALL KNOW that coerced sex isnt the same as coerced burger flipping. To equate the two is a bad faith argument. The opposition uses bad faith arguments in part because its necessarily hard to argue against them using concrete reason.

it's a "job" segregated to women almost exclusively and we all know what happens to normal jobs relegated to women: no matter how legalized or normalized they are, they're always marginalized.

it's incredibly dangerous to the mental and physical health of the woman. the way patriarchy builds male sexuality is inherently violent. a woman whose "job" is to serve men sexually is inevitably in serious danger of violence under the excuse that it's all just kinky stuff (abuse kink, breath play, etc), when in reality it's things that can literally get her killed "on the job".

men hae always hated women, and they have always hated even more the "used up" women. how long can woman be valuable and expensive in this market?

i've listend to a podcast with a woman who was trying to get out of prostitution. she said that she had to move after a year or so because she got "known" around and the "clients" wanted novelty. she made good money in the first couple months, but after a while "clients" got bored and she had to find a different place with different "customers". so this kind of "job" doesn't offer stability.

women get killed by their fucken boyfriends and husbands every fucken day. how can these people think women can be any safer in protitution? men don't respect the women they fuck, especially when they pay for it. the way these people think is insane!

I really don’t like how people try to argue that working at an office job or any other profession is just as “exploitative” as being a sex worker. That’s just simply not true. You’re less likely to get STDs, sexually assaulted, physically abused, r@ped,get pregnant, ETC. at an office job or any other company that doesn’t involve prostitution for that matter. You’re only seen as an object and you will not have benefits or rights. Prostitution probably isn’t a long lasting career either since men think women are over the hill and dead by 30 anyway. Your body’s health is more at risk if you’re a prostitute than any other profession. This is just a beginner start to the argument

Personally, I would start looking at how massueses and chiropractors don't provide physical pleasure and in fact are a trained profession which manipulates the body to provide pain and tensions relief. I would also look at the conflation of physical pleasure with sexual pleasure which happens with this line of reasoning, they are separate in my opinion.

Typically work places have codes of conduct which try to remove sexual behaviours from the work place as they are not appropriate. As a society we don't see sexual behaviours/ intimacy as part of professional working practice, it is something which is viewed as the domain of the personal. Citing work place laws for sexual harrassment might be helpful.

Prostitution is different from other jobs in that is based in exploitation and power dynamics, you can't separate them out. Realistically, would prostitution exist if women didn't need some way of making money in dire situations and if male sexual violence didn't exist?

As for legalising it to make things better, legality and morality are separate things. Germany under Hitler had the Nuremberg laws, which were definitely not moral in any way.

The reasons you can't buy organs is because it is unethical, people in need of money would sell theirs or others to get the money. Yet when it comes to the female sexual organs we can't seem to understand they also fall in this category. If you can't buy them, why should you be able to rent them? Their are ethical consequences of 'renting' organs until the debt is paid off, what happens if the person can't pay? Are we allowed to remove the organ which could kill them?

Anything around that could work.

There is also the second shift from sociology, which looks at women having to do the majority of domestic care which involves a lot of emotional labour. Emotional labour is not valued by society because men in the patriarchy have been used to receiving it for free. How can prostitution, which is mostly the emotional labour of pleasing the client, be the same as any other job?

That is more of a spitball, not sure how that might fit.

I gotchu sis

Nordic Model Now info: https://nordicmodelnow.org/

Women struggle to leave prostitution

nordicmodelnow.org

Women often struggle to exit prostitution, and when they do, many find themselves returning after a temporary reprieve, due to difficulties finding a stable home and income. Many are affected by mental health problems, low self esteem and anxiety about life outside of prostitution. Well-funded support and exit services are vital for women trying to remain exited, and the Nordic Model is the only legislation that prioritises assisting women to rebuild their lives. | Read more >>

Myths About Prostitution (a lot of them think it makes the workers safer. It does not and drives demand for trafficking, cheaper prices, more depraved acts): https://nordicmodelnow.org/myths-about-prostitution/

Punters do not respect prostitutes: https://nordicmodelnow.org/myths-about-prostitution/myth-punters-care-about-the-women-they-buy/

Decriminalization is not enough https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/13/decriminalising-sex-trade-protect-workers-abuse

Female war refugees are being commodified in these men's minds . WARNING, this site is TW af :

reduxx.info

As Ukrainian women continue to flee the conflict, disturbing trends are emerging as the women are being considered fodder for the legal sex trade in Germany by some men.

Just an abstract but might be worth finding this article thru uni library: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/365852321_Men_who_pay_for_sex_in_Germany_and_what_they_teach_us_about_the_failure_of_legal_prostitution_a_6-country_report_on_the_sex_trade_from_the_perspective_of_the_socially_invisible_'freiers'

Maybe it's the same as the English report on this site: https://prostitutionresearch.com/

Another study https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1077801218757375

NY Persepctive https://catwinternational.org/resource/from-impunity-to-accountability-deterring-sex-buyers-in-new-york-state-and-beyond/

The quotes (TW x 10000) https://dieunsichtbarenmaenner.wordpress.com/menu/

And a few more (every article is good with Nordic model IMO)

nordicmodelnow.org

Studies of men who buy sex (punters) show that they are significantly more likely than other men to rape and engage in all forms of violence against women. A US study found that punters were nearly eight times more likely to rape than other men. | Read more >>

nordicmodelnow.org

Decriminalising prostitution implies that buying sex is acceptable. This leads to more men buying sex & more pimps wanting to cash in on the extra money. But there aren’t enough women to fill the increased demand, because those who have genuine choices don’t generally choose to go into prostitution. So pimps use force & coercion, which meets the UN definition of human trafficking. | Read more >>

nordicmodelnow.org

Prostitution inherently contradicts the prostituted person’s absolute legal right to reject sexual advances and activity for any or no reason. Any attempt to legalise or decriminalise prostitution would inevitably involve the acceptance and institutionalisation of a legal exemption to this right for those in prostitution, just like the old patriarchal marriage law did for wives. The practical realities of prostitution are incompatible with the prostituted person’s absolute legal right to reject sexual advances and activity for any or no reason.

nordicmodelnow.org

Suffolk police implemented a Nordic Model style prostitution strategy after a punter, called Steve Wright, murdered five prostituted women in Ipswich. A subsequent evaluation found that every £1 spent on the strategy saved £2 of public money, because of savings to the criminal justice and social support systems. | Read more >>

nordicmodelnow.org

The media glamorises prostitution and presents the illusion that it’s sexually liberating for women, and sex industry lobbyists claim that it’s just regular work. For a long time Jacqueline Gwynne accepted this without question even while working as a receptionist in a legal brothel in Melbourne. It was only two years later that she began to see the dark, seedy and dangerous truth. Here she explains what it was like so you can decide for yourself whether prostitution can ever be considered a normal job.

nordicmodelnow.org

“My experiences show that a woman doesn’t choose prostitution. She is choosing survival. Prostitution isn’t a choice. It is the absence of choice. Nobody makes the choice to be poor, low caste, or female. Society and individuals take advantage of this lack of choice. "Language is politics. I use the term 'prostituted woman.' People wonder, 'Who prostituted her?' The system of inequality is what prostitutes women and girls.” Ruchira Gupta | Read more >>

nordicmodelnow.org

Prostitution involves unwanted sex, which is itself a form violence, and the punter requires the woman to pretend that she is enjoying it, even if she finds it physically and emotionally repulsive. This is a form of psychological violence. But punters and pimps are often also physically violent. Right up to murder. Nothing can make prostitution safe. The numbers of dead women tell us that. Dead bodies don't lie. | Read more >>

www.feministcurrent.com

When the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women Australia (CATWA) announced the release of our new report on the Nordic Model, supporters of the sex industry began targeting our Facebook page. When I followed up with an opinion piece for The Conversation on the success of the Nordic Model, a handful of men, and one prominent…

Even sex robots are bad

nordicmodelnow.org

Kathleen Richardson argues for the end of sex robots and that we should problematise the use of the term ‘sex’ associated with them, and push back against attempts to dilute the meaning of ‘sex’.

Massage therapists, chiropractors and osteopaths become more skilled and more appreciated as they gain experience whereas prostituted women become less valuable as they gain more experience. What other “profession” only values youth and inexperience over accrued skill?

I run a company that provides services and for me it comes down to boundaries. If I say I can provide x training for y number of people at z cost and the client wants extra people trained last minute, it’s in my T&Cs how that’s going to be invoiced. If they don’t pay, I can take them to court. If they abuse me, they’ll be arrested. I don’t turn up to a training event and be told that actually it’ll take place in French not English. No, they get exactly what they booked. Say this for any industry that isn’t sex work and people will say, well yes of course.

I needn’t mention that every year that goes by, I review my prices and they either stay or go up. Everything that I do relating to my career makes me more desirable to clients.

Sorry for the spam of links. I forgot these two:

This one is chilling regarding traumatic brain injury:

nordicmodelnow.org

The fourth chapter of ‘Supporting Students Impacted by the Sex Industry: A Handbook for Universities’

"Many women report that punters beat and kick them, including on their heads, and attempt to strangle them. A 2006 study found that women who have been involved in prostitution have traumatic brain damage at levels comparable to victims of torture. A 2018 study found that 61% had sustained head injuries in prostitution. This is a similar rate to that found in boxers.

It should be obvious from all of this that even with condom use, full-service prostitution can never come close to conforming to the health and safety standards that apply in normal workplaces."

nordicmodelnow.org

A transcript of our Trauma and Prostitution webinar from June 2021, featuring Dr Ingeborg Kraus, clinical psychologist and expert in psychotraumatology, and Merly Åsbogård and Rebecca Mott, both survivors of prostitution.

Psychological trauma reactions

Anyway I really appreciate you writing this and getting these ideas out. They are not popular nor easy to discuss

Because sex requires consent. This makes it a special kind of job. For most jobs, accepting the role is the consent, but when sex is involved, consent must be given with every single encounter. Consent cannot be purchased, it must be freely given and revocable at any time. So it is as exploitative in the same way as other jobs, but it has another layer of exploitation that is altogether unethical and differentiates it from other jobs

I listened to a couple of good podcasts on the topic recently. I think it comes down to the unavoidable exploitation and abuse that the industry enables. Just because a few privileged women make good money and say they like it, doesn’t erase the rot at the centre.

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/feminist-current/id603245791?i=1000598088861

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-unspeakable-podcast/id1524832743?i=1000598238927

Yes, all labour in capitalism is exploitative. But degrees of exploitation and risks attached to jobs vary greatly. I'm a content writer and someone else is a maidservant. Then someone else is a delivery boy and someone else is a prostitute. We are all exploited. But we are not equally exploited. And definitely not in the same way.