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Hi Queens, I’m seeking advice on what to do with this friendship dilemma. One of my closest friends (of 10+ years) aligns with FDS principles but ever since our college days I noticed we clash in our values on spontaneity vs planning.
About Me: busy woman working as a lawyer and have many family commitments, so I value ✨planning✨. I live off my google calendar that’s often scheduled by the hour, even scheduling my downtime/selfcare wherever possible and I try to stick to it. Last year I had a scary round of burnout / chronic stress / health issues so these days I’m overly cautious of overworking myself and unpredictability.
About Her: also a busy woman (full time career + full time Masters degree) but she values ✨spontaneity✨! She’s in therapy for her avoidant attachment (broken family / childhood trauma) and apparently needs to practice going with the flow, prioritising her needs (to unlearn people pleasing her parents) and to rediscover herself, all of which I respect and would expect a HVW to do.
The Problem: This clash in values is starting to strain our friendship. I get so stressed and frustrated with organising our meetups because she always changes the times/places/terms, often without asking if that’s what I want and only because it suits her. I find it hard to negotiate with her because her avoidant tendencies means she doesn’t open up and explain why she’s constantly changing things. She’s so “spontaneous” that she’s even invited guests then uninvited them 😂, and has often cancelled/rescheduled only to then UNDO it last minute (“hey I know we cancelled tonight but I’m free again, let’s do 6pm?”) etc. This isn’t a once or twice thing, this happens many times in the lead up to a single event, then even an hour before meeting, she’ll want to change it AGAIN last minute because she’s not feeling it or been delayed or wants to do xyz instead. I’d put my foot down saying that’s not what we agreed on. She’d apologise but also say she’s trying to practice her therapy.
Yet once we meet up, things are amazing! I’ll admit sometimes her spontaneity has fun results (e.g. one time it became one of our best memories) but usually it’s just stressful… and I can sense she’s stressed and upset when plans don’t work out or when I cancel in a huff.
Both her and mutuals imply I’m stressing too much, being too rigid and maybe being “lawyer-esque”. They say friendships should be casual and comfortable (hanging out, being on call, going with the flow, etc). One person even explained to me that society has become way too schedule-based, people don’t just “pop in” anymore and that being a bit more spontaneous can be good for our wellbeing + friendships. I can see that view, so I’m torn.
What do you ladies think?
From what you wrote, it sounds like she's naturally flakey but when gets called out on it, she blames her trauma and uses her therapy as an excuse.
Personally, her behavior wouldn't work for me. I had a 'friend' of 10 years constantly cancel last minute for dumb reasons and eventually it got to me (among other things, of course).
I have a schedule and stick to my commitments. So should she.
Of course, I am open to flexibility (the other day a gal pal was in my area and texted to see if I was free to grab a coffee and I was so I went), but it can't get in the way of life.
I guess it comes down to respect.
It doesn't sound like she respects you or your time. Is that ok with you? 10 years down the road, if she never improves this behavior, will you be resentful and/or angry at yourself for sticking around?
A HV friend respects your boundries, as well as sets their own. the question you should be asking is: is she respecting your boundries?
if she knows you hate last minute changes/cancellations and still does that to you, the answer is 'no'. she doesn't have to be a planning woman, she doesn't have to change herself to keep you as a friend. but she has to respect your need for planning if she wants to go out with you.
now people reading this might be thinking "ok then the same applies to OP. she must respect her friend's need to be spontaneous." Well, honestly, i see people use 'spontaneous' as an excuse to be selfish and irresponsable all the time. they don't care about other people's time, just their own.
spontaneous is "hey, are you free today? wanna go do xyz?" and another completely different thing is "hi, tonight's plans are cancelled because i'm not in the mood for xyz anymore" and 1h later "hello, i've changed my mind. let's go do xyz" as if you were just sitting all day waiting for her to invite you to do something. you have your life to take care of. you can be spontaneous when possible, and it seems like that's what you do. but is she matching your energy as you're matching hers?
I had this issue with a long-term friend who I always saw as having HV traits as well, but I ultimately decided to cut her off. I think I realized she was more of a pickme (always trying to be the "cool girl" and not listening to me when I told her that her male "friends" just wanted sex, etc.) so that was a major contributing factor as well, and your situation may be very different. You should trust your gut. A lot of times, we keep friendships around just because we have known a person for so long and have developed such a history with them. That shared history makes it harder to look at the situation objectively. Imo I think your friend sounds selfish. Sure, she may be "spontaneous" at planning things because she wants to unlearn her people pleasing tendencies, but if you've been her friend for ten years, she should absolutely be taking your feelings into concern. People-pleasing is only a problem when the people you are trying to please haven't earned that from you. When you are friends with someone for a long time, when you value them, you want to please them, right? Your friend doesn't seem like she cares enough.
Furthermore, planning things in advance is simply the respectful thing to do. Some restaurants require reservations for a reason. You get charged a cancellation fee if you try to cancel a doctors appointment without enough notice. Spontaneity has its place in relationships, but it should be the exception, not the norm.
It’s not just men who can weaponize therapy.
I have some flaky friends, but I’ve distanced myself from them. I will only see them when it’s convenient for me.
Especially as I’ve gotten older (past 30), all my true HV friends will plan weeks in advance. We trust each other, respect and value each other’s time, so we make plans and stick to them.
The one remaining “spontaneous” friend I can think of admittedly lives her life in a LV way. She lives across the country, so sometimes she spontaneously calls me and we chat on the phone. I do enjoy talking with her as she’s very smart and creative, but her life is full of drama, how she likes it. Otherwise, we don’t see each other. It would probably drive me crazy trying to make plans with her locally.
I've had "friends" like this as well. They would regularly flake or change plans at the very last minute. IMO most people who do this are self-centred. They can only think in terms of their needs and what suits them and they never stop to consider other people. I put a lot of time and effort into maintaining friendships wtih flakey people when I was younger because I was brainwashed into thinking that expecting people to stick to plans was unreasonable. Then I went through a tough time and I heard absolutely nothing back from these "friends". After 6 months of hearing nothing, not even a "How are you?" text, I blocked them all. In hindsight, I don't know why I was surprised that these people turned out to be fair weather friends. After all, if someone can't even meet you at the agreed upon time, then they're not going to be there when you really need them. IMO friends that you can't rely on or who won't be there for you in tough times are not real friends.
She’s in therapy for avoidant attachment issues? Since when are avoidant people the people-pleasers? AFAIK, only anxious/insecurely attached people do people-pleasing. Well… If her therapist is telling her she should prioritize her needs on the account of other people, I’d seriously consider getting a new therapist.
She sounds exhausting and disrespectful of your time. I had a “friend” like that, too, she used to change the time/place of our meeting on the day and it drove me nuts. I also like to plan things out and stick to a schedule, like you’ve said - sponteneity has its own time and place in relationship, but it isn’t stable and eventually you’ll burn out. You said that making plans with her stresses you out - is the stress worth it for a couple of hours of “awesome time”?
If you trully value your friendship, I’d considet having a serious talk with her and then upholding your boundaries. For example; if she changes plans last-minute without a good and valid reason, you just won’t hang out. See if she’s even able to reach a compromise with you and not hide under the guise of being “avoidant-attached”.
I’m going to object here and say in theory your friends could have a point.
I have a close friend and she explained to me relatively early on thah she is prioritizing taking care of herself first. And politely explained that all/most plans are flexible and no promises. If we make specific plans and get tickets she won’t flake, however we both handle all our other plans as flexible. It’s very upfront, polite, and clear. And we have a really healthy friendship.
Everyone's different. Key is, is there enough mutual respect (&/or actual capacity) to find ways to compromise and find middle grounds?
This could look like sometimes planning, whilst also leaving room for sometimes spontaneous.
IT could look like asking for more/different communication around things so you get less inconvenienced.
But if either one of you is expected to compromise all your preferences for another? that's imbalanced and frankly unsustainable.
Personally I struggle with both those approaches, because I need both. I need spontaneity, and i also need structure. When I deal with someone who is more extreme I struggle bc even though I do appreciate where they're coming from, I'm just more moderate about it.
Although to be fair i did use to be more extreme on one, and i wasn't really compatible at all with people on the other side of the spectrum at that time.
If the friendship matters to you both, enough, then you'll both be able to talk about it and find a way to make it work.
If she's not capable and just repeatedly gets defensive despite your long lasting connection etc, well, is that going to be tenable for you? Is she respecting you, and the friendship?