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I’ve been friends with Jake (24M) for 6 years, the only male friend left from my college years. Today, I ended the friendship because he’s recently become an Andrew Tate supporter. I'll say A.T so I don't say his dreaded name so much.
I was supposed to have lunch today to meet Jake's new GF, but she bailed last minute so he brought his gamer friend Tom (also 24M). I should’ve left earlier because it went SO BADLY. We were eating lunch and suddenly Jake’s friend Tom said,
Tom: “Since you’re a woman, you probably hate Andrew Tate right?”
Me: “Indeed, he’s a misogynist who's also trafficked—”
Tom and Jake: “WRONG! That’s all actually false.”
My first mistake was to ever respond in the first place and to not get up and leave. Instead I froze. They both sniggered and Tom starts randomly mansplaining to me about how A.T is actually bringing masculinity back and “supports” women because he believes men need to protect them.
Me: “Yeah but to protect them from… other men.”
Tom shuts this down and says women are inherently more fragile, so they need to be protected from everything. Even from other women.
Me: “Wouldnt it just be better to say then that everyone has the duty to ensure the safety of all, regardless of gender.”
Tom says I’m missing the point and attacks me saying I don’t know how to debate properly.
Me: “Ok, then by your logic if men’s role is to protect women from (?), wouldn’t that be irrelevant if she, for example, arms herself with a gun?”
Tom: “No that’s stupid. A man would still have the upper hand even if she had a gun.”
So clearly, my biggest mistake was that I even had lunch with this idiot. Jake went quiet as Tom continued to “debate” with me. And every time I brought up radical feminist issues, I was met with:
Jake and Tom: “NONE of that counts because of the Law of Averages!”
What? So Essentially, Jake and Tom believe that any woman’s issue- misogyny, trafficking, porn, prostitution, violence, etc is IRRELEVANT because “it’s not what the average woman experiences”. I demanded they tell me what the average woman was and they refused and said I’m trying to change the topic. They also believed women from other countries "don’t count in this debate" when I had no idea, so essentially making up the debating rules just to discredit me. They refused to see how their traditional oppressive views resulted in harm for others but ESPECIALLY women, and that I was misunderstanding the whole debate because I raised these issues.
The argument was just circling because these men’s brains were so inflexible, lacked critical thinking and couldn’t see the bigger picture. So I tried to calm my anxiety and shakiness so I could exit. Tom then went on a random stupid rant about how nothing women face is actually a systemic issue and I’m making it all up. I just start packing my things and Jake finally intervenes, stops the argument and begs me to stay. I refuse and say lunch is over.
Tom proceeds to tell me “Well great debate! It’s no hard feelings, I’m well researched in this area because I have a degree in creative intelligence and did a couple business units.” What? 🤡
I was infuriated because this ignorant idiot didn’t know I’m a lawyer, graduated with degrees in both Law AND Philosophy and have dealt with countless BS arguments from people… but I guess I had my guard down this time because I really wasn't prepared for this today. I’m also used to arguing with strangers and I had no idea I’d randomly get cornered by a close friend! I couldn't think straight because I was trying to deal with so much broken trust, disappointment, rage and shock. A friend who used to "support" me and women, celebrated my achievements/growth and shared many great times.
Tom left and I told Jake I was disappointed in him. He got defensive and claims he did the right thing by not supporting anyone and maintain impartiality, but he clearly supported Tom. I told him he is a coward, I’m sad he's chosen to support A.T and this has ended the friendship. I couldn’t hold back the tears because it really felt like a break up. He got very scared- scrambling, shaking and reminding me about everything we’ve been through and how much he’s cares about us. He turned back into the big softie Jake I used to know. But it wasn’t working this time. This battle within himself is his to deal with. His version of masculinity is his struggle to deal with. I can't be with anyone who refuses to acknowledge my fundamental rights and the true liberation of women.
Later he texted me the amount I owed him for lunch and I just blocked him.
This is an embarrassing story for me to admit because I am constantly reading radical feminist literature and have spent many years curating a HV life. I’ve made countless reddit FDS/FLUS posts about HV friendships and turned a blind eye to the red flags about this one- the ONLY male friendship I have left. Even my boyfriend had been warning me for months about these Jake and Tom, and I still had hope it wasn’t true.
Despite how harsh I am on myself for not acting sooner (seeing the red flags earlier, leaving the argument earlier, etc), I’m sitting here now with my boyfriend who has rushed home from work with flowers, chocolates and is helping me write this post.
Overall, a cautionary tale for you ladies…
EDIT: Update, Jake messaged me on a different account, saying I had belittled Tom, my views are "a bunch of emotional straw man arguments" and that he doesn't want to be a part of my "hive mind of the same political views". Haha. Block. 🤡🤡
EDIT 2: Update! Jake's GF just dumped him. She heard about the story from our mutual friends. So Jake basically got dumped TWICE in 24 hours. Celebration drinks, anyone?
Babe, you did the right thing. Imagine being so garbage and useless as a man you’d start off a conversation with Andrew Tate.
I mean does he have any of his *own* achievements to discuss or is he just masturbating himself to another man’s internet lies?
Never again engage with bad faith actors. Someone truly open to nuanced discourse is willing to consider perspectives differing from their own, and is willing to critically think about their own opinions. I read something somewhere on FDS a while ago and it stuck with me: it is impossible to argue with someone determined to misunderstand you.
"Even my boyfriend had been warning me for months about these Jake and Tom, and I still had hope it wasn’t true."
sis, your boyfriend was protecting you from the other men, which was something you brought up to the scrotes. sigh.
let this be a lesson well-learnt that if he talks, walks and acts like a scrote, he IS one. no ifs or buts. sorry you had to learn the hard way but you know much better now.
What they meant to say is that women "don't count" as people, in general, and the "average woman" are the porn stars they watch.
I had a conversation with a man recently about a youtube video titled "why modern men relate to the movie American psycho"
He starts off talking about how poor menz feel like they don't have a purpose, because their lives are so easy.
I let him know that the author of american psycho is making fun of male narcissists. Men so self absorbed that they literally implode their lives, out of boredom.
He gets pissy and raises his voice "PEOPLES lives are so easy that they feel lost."
The title of the video in question literally says "Men."
I half agreed with him, because weak men do create hard times. But i made sure to let him know that I don't feel a single shred of empathy for those men, and I genuinely hope they all commit suicide. 🤷
Imagine EXPECTING women to feel sorry for you, because you live life on easy mode. Our lives arent the same. I can't relate to them, at all, whatsoever. And there's no point even talking to them about the female experience, because real life women are inconvenient, ugly, figments of their imagination, and REAL women are porn/instagram/onlyfans women.
The average woman thinks A.T. and his zombie followers are shit for brains. Oops, guess his strategies arent working as planned.
He’s complicit. And you are under no obligation to entertain your oppressors
Women are inherently fragile to the point they need men's protection, but at the same time women fuck other women up? Noone said men were logical lol
That update! Hive mind!!! Emotions!!! That lack of self-awareness has my head spinning!
I'm convinced that anyone who listens to AT or redpill pua varieties have the same brain-mush as people who fall for Qanon cults. When challenged by truth and reality, they react the same way and double down on their abusiveness.
Damn. I’m sorry hun. I know how hurtful it is to be let down by someone you thought you knew. And so unexpected! His behavior after the confrontation is appalling and is more proof that you did the right thing. Hang in there.
I feel bad for his girlfriend. She has no idea what a misogynist pos her bf is.
Op, Jake came to dinner to argue. He even brought back up to intimidate you. It was a setup. Plain & simple.
Every single woman faces misogyny. Lots of women are susceptible to violence and gr00med into doing p0rn. If a man doesn’t have the basic knowledge to understand that, then he’s an idiot. For example, a documentary called Hot Girls Wanted shows that a lot of extremely young women are trafficked and gr00med into doing p0rn by thinking they were signing up for modeling. Onlyfans also gr00ms women into thinking they’ll get great money and benefits. In reality, they’re making less money than fast-food workers. OP, I know it’s completely frustrating when men downplay women’s hardships. However, I wouldn’t let them get to you. They’re a waste of oxygen and clearly misogynists. Anyone who supports AT is sexist and a loser
He got dumped twice hahahaha
GOD! I've had enough of these Gen Z little boys but honestly, this post broke my heart for you, OP. I really have so much high hopes for the young generation to attack systemic issues regarding sexism, but I guess it's just too big of a wish to come true at this time. I wish I could say that I have a little hope for the Alpha generation, but I fear it is only going to get so much worse from here.
One of the worst heartbreaks women go through is the loss of a friendship with a man, because as women, we really put so much energy and stock into our platonic relationships with other people. It's how we manage to live such longer, happier lives in contrast to men on average. We wrongly believe that our male friends love us as much as we love them, but sadly the level is never equal. Men only see women as extensions of themselves and what we can do for them; real emotional intimacy is never their focal point when they deal with a woman, platonic or otherwise.
I can't be fucked to deal with men on any level anymore unless he's my father (Whom I thankfully have a good relationship with) or a family member of some sort, someone I have to work with and forced to interact, or he's someone I'm seriously dating/married to. Otherwise, that's it. I reserve all of my energy and desire for platonic intimacy with women exclusively and it's been so peaceful.
I'm sorry you had to lose this friend, but such is a fact of adulthood. We lose more and more people as we grow older, but moreover, we grow more and more into ourselves and seek out the very best friendship of all- with ourselves.
Your edit about Jake circumventing your block by contacting you on another account makes me think it might be wise to have a lawyer friend of yours and/or a male write Jake a formal no contact letter and have it mailed so you can document Jake’s ongoing harassment and nip this in the bud. Stay safe!
When I read “I froze” and then “he interrupted” I honestly skimmed the rest which went exactly into the fiery car crash one would expect. But now you know: that body response, coupled with his interrupting MAX twice is your cue to get up and leave. What I hate is you just expected a nice relaxing lunch and they AMBUSHED you. I wonder if they planned this. Your friend seemed silent throughout all of this so that’s tacit approval. Just sad all around. Well done for blocking.
Not your circus not your monkeys.
Don’t feel bad for wanting to see the good in men. It’s not our fault they take bad paths that lead them to LV/NV mindsets, attitudes, and lifestyles. Grieve the lost relationship and be happy knowing the ones around you are good, HV people who are there to support and love you.
Andrew Tate is a loser, He acts like nobody cares about men’s issues while every dude forgets about international men’s day like it’s their wedding anniversary. Women issues are usually there because of men’s actions. Like dress code or you’ll provoke them, watch out at night or if you get assaulted or raped it’s your fault. Men can be lazy in every household but you can’t. If a man mistreats you its your fault too. While with men they have rights since birth and are considered human while we are eternal children and get infantilised in every stage of our lives by pickme women and men claiming that it’s done because they care. Screw that. Men’s problems are usually their own fault But Blame it on women, can’t afford child support? Then don’t breed, Blame the divorce rate on women? well maybe you shouldn’t cheat or neglect your marriage to play video games. Whine that nice guys finish last? Well you aren’t that nice to begin with.
Also If I was there I wouldn’t allow any friend I brought along start a debate I would interfere right away and say that this is not acceptable. I even stood up for A stranger who got taunted by his friends and got used as a napkin I told these giggling toddlers that friends need to be cherished and respected because in today’s world there is hardly a thing as a friend.
Anyway you did the right thing.