Is it selfish to want a man to provide AND do domestic labor?

Men have higher physical energy and earning potential just from being born male. Earning more money and doing more labor is EASIER for them. So yeah, a man should be expected to do his best, not coast along comfortably while his female partner spreads herself thin. My partner regularly lets me sit back and relax while he takes care of everything even though he works full time. A HV partner wants you to rest. He wants to feel useful and capable. So overall I don't think it's unreasonable to an arrangement where he pays for most things and also does a fair share of chores.

My take is that this is the beauty of a HVM: he loves making you happy and easing your burdens. A HVM who adores you is not going to be keeping score and guilting you about the fact that he makes 70% of household income plus does 60% of household chores. He will be giving his full energy toward giving you a joyful and comfortable life in all its dimensions. So in short, I absolutely do not think it is an unrealistic standard to set. You simply vet for the subset of HVM who have particularly high earning potential, physical energy, and domestic skills. Until you find that suitable man, you remain unburdened by a man who cannot provide what you need and expect.

If you don't mind me saying, this is reminiscent of the LibFem ideals. I like their ideals, I truly do, but the problem with them is that they assume equality is equal. (Ikr?)

There is a difference between equality and equity which I think they don't get. Consider Xmas presents given that it's currently December: if I give a 4 yr old nephew, a diabetic aunt, and my dad some chocolate fudge, we will have a hyperactive toddler, a sugar coma, and a happy parent. This is equality: I treated everyone exactly the same, but I get different results.

Equity would be spending £10 on everyone.

So back to the real world and your question. If we are going to treat everyone equally, then your scenario is unfair.

However, we live in a patriarchy in which your guy will be earning more for doing less, receive promotions if you have kids because he's a responsible type now, and be generally treated better at work than you. For him to be any decent kind of a partner he needs to recognise these things as true and adjust accordingly. How you want him to adjust is financially. How you work out the adjustment is between him and you, but starting with finances seems entirely fair.

Men have been asking the same from us for all of these years now, and all out of wedlock to boot. 💀 They refuse to be with a woman unless she works, pays pretty much everything, and busts her ass doing all the cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, taking care of the children, the social calendar, remembering the names of everybody's doctors and dentists, etc.

So, why not? I don't see anything wrong with asking for this standard. If an HVM in my life is so extraordinarily busy that he feels he can't pick up the house chores, he'll pay for help with a professional cleaner, a nanny/maid, or someone personal that he knows who could use an extra buck by cleaning up our place here and there while we both work. He will absolutely refuse to run me down or pick up one too many socks off the floor, tell me to leave it, and he'll find a way to fix this.

That's what's most important in the end: An HVM will sit down and think and find out ways to make YOUR LIFE easier and more comfortable while all the other men piss themselves crying about bUT mUh eQuAlItY!

Edit: I also work from home currently and will continue to do so for a long time afterwards, so it would grant me flexibility to do the appropriate chores in the home as well as childrearing. It's not something I do for bragging rights or that I would count it against him, because I only do it out of the love in my heart to see my family happy and in a clean environment. The same way he wouldn't count it against me with his wallet because seeing us thriving from his money makes him happy and it is something he does out of the love in his own heart, too.

I only date men who help with household cleaning, cooking (and yardwork)...this is in no way unreasonable.

If the roles were reversed, women are expected to do this all the time. I know several high income earning women who also do the majority of child rearing, cover 50% or more of household costs, and and do good chunk of domestic labour, and no one blinks an eye about this as “asking too much of the woman”. Absolutely hold men accountable to these same standards that society already normalizes for women.

Yes this is perfectly reasonable. My fiance pays way more towards the expenses as he makes much more and it's his house he bought before we were even together. I basically pay enough to cover the property taxes each month. We have someone come and do a thorough cleaning each month. Is willing to pay for twice a month on months we need it. (this is honestly the norm for where we live. We use a woman who is self employed and pay her a nice amount. Comes out to about 40 an hour. Everyone is happy). We both do our own laundry. I'm more than happy to wash a load for him if he needs it though or put his stuff in the dryer if he's busy and vice versa. I like to do the majority of cooking when we eat in because honestly when he prepares meals they are just a grilled protein source and steamed vegetables and I don't consider that a proper meal and because I really enjoy cooking. If I cook he cleans up. We empty and load the dishwasher whenever one of us sees it needs to be done. He takes out the trash. If he was injured and like broke a bone I'd be more than happy to take it out. I feel like this is perfectly reasonable. Even my momma's boy cousin who was getting dangerously close to being an incel and was at best definitely a "nice guy" (he's definitely not a hvm) does most of the house work in his marriage. His wife out earns him not sure how they split their finances though. But even if he was the bread winner he'd still do most of the housework because he saw his mom doing EVERYTHING growing up because his dad was clueless so she taught him how to take care of things and not depend on a woman. So no what you want is not unreasonable. Sadly I do see alot of my coworkers doing it all in their relationships. Splitting bills 50/50 and doing most of the house work. But I think this happens because they let it happen.

Husband pays all the bills and currently does the lion’s share of housework. We have two small children one of whom is a newborn. He also pays for cleaners to come every fortnight. Normally I’d do the cooking (I prefer this) and at the very least he will tidy the kitchen, empty dishwasher, do laundry every day unless he’s been working a lot and i either pick up for him or he catches up in his spare time. He also does the “man” chores like taking out the bin and repair jobs around the house. He’s very attentive and loving. FDS and division of labour is a frequent topic of discussion in our home and he’s very much on board with being a good example to our son and daughter and making my life easier. So in answer to your question, no. This should be normalised.

I should also mention I work part time but if I didn't work childcare alone which I do the most of and running the household - the "mental load" if you will - more than balances out the division of labour in our relationship.

Sit down and write out all the expectations you hold for yourself for caring and supporting your family. Now take that same list and think of it as the expectations you'd have of your spouse. Do you seem selfish now? It's important to remember the bar we hold for ourselves when we begin to feel we're asking too much.

No I don’t believe it is selfish. My ex took care of the bills, cooked and cleaned the place. When I would occasionally try and help, he would tell me to just leave it and he will take care of it. As others mentioned, a HVM’s goal is to make your life easier and happier. Your presence and being with you is the only thing they ask for. I think he was the way he was because of how he was raised. So vetting in the beginning is important and watching what he does/say! It’s not a type of thing I would force on someone, they would have to have it already before moving forward with the relationship.

You can absolutely set your standards wherever you'd like. Your options are narrowed, but it's worthwhile and hardly impossible. I don't have exactly this (which is fine, different lives, all that), but my husband and I have a reasonable split of housework while I'm in school. After, we're pooling money for various shared goals (paying off student loans, home ownership, travel, etc.) with side money for each of us, but that means the bill split could be considered either of ours while the other person saves for a down payment or whatever else.

The couples in our friend group seem to entirely consist of men paying most or all bills with various housework contributions (mostly close to equal). The prevalent attitude is favorable to mutually beneficial relationships, from what I've observed. And the two people who aren't really progressing their lives aren't dating anyone, so everyone wins.

Worth noting I'm in a STEM field, and so is virtually every man I know, which contributes heavily to the financial dynamics at play.

Late to the party but I agree, men in general make more messes and add on average 7 more hours of housework to a woman's week regardless of her work status.

Men make the most messes, in general they should clean up after themselves and clean up even more to compensate for the shit "they forgot about" and "were too busy playing games to do"

I think it depends.

If you aren't working outside the house, IE a full time SAH spouse or SAHM, then the majority of household tasks should be yours. Majority, not all, and definitely not doing shit like picking up dirty underwear or taking cups to the sink or normal parenting duties But if you are working outside the house, then Fuck yes it should be a relatively even split of household tasks/mental labor. Obviously it's never actually a 50/50 split, sometimes you have more on your plate at work and he steps up and vice versa.

Is it realistic to find someone totally ok with providing, doing the majority of the work AND he pays for all your bills while you save your cash - absolutely not. But if thats your standards then don't back down.

You can’t have everything. It’s defend and provide and you do the rest. or fair partnership where he does chores, tinkering, and work Together with you. But you need to work too and pay for your own stuff instead of letting him pay for everything. In relationships balance is needed, responsibilities create privileges. and privileges creates duties. Having a man pay for you is a special privilege not a right So you must give something back.