Are we really "giving up on dating" if most men don't even want to truly date?

LMFAO okay the fast food thing would've really cemented in my mind that it's not a date. what even is the end game there? like if you don't know it's a date then what exactly do they think they achieved?

IT'S BONKERS TO ME that we were all socialized into thinking this is remotely acceptable. After mainlining FDS for over a year now I'm truly shocked at how little we must've valued ourselves.

Many men are so fearful of rejection they often get passive and don't even try, or half ass things. It is really sad. And IME the passive guys often were passive aggressive and weren't as nice and kind as portrayed

Holy sh-- your own mom?? Wtf. I'm sorry she is captured by the pickme to the point of your detriment.. I'm so sorry that whole situation happened to you, but grateful you had friends in your corner. I didnt lose all my friends in my situations, but the ones who did dismiss me were incomprehensible.

And it's true men do project and try to tear down good things about us. I was very smart compared to an ex who got very very low grades and didn't care, while I pulled high marks in an arguably more challenging program. Guess who was called "stupid!"

And thank you, I needed to vent.. 🥰i hope you're doing ok. might edit it for clarity/privacy later.

Gold, and you, have inherent value. It doesn't matter whether some idiotic male doesn't understand its value. My best friend set her cousin up with my husband as we were getting divorced. I'd told her all of the abusive things he'd done to me when I broke my neck and jaw. He refused all affection and sex with me for 4 years. He made me feel like I was hideous, but it was crazy because men were always trying to have sex with me, and I was stupidly faithful to my husband. My best friend took his side, her cousin married him, and she died of ovarian cancer 7 years later. The entire world is full of evil males and their pick me female supporters. But they eventually get what they deserve. My ex used to say that he didn't want a sick wife and that I was broken and he was gonna trade me in for a new model. Now he's got a dead wife and is one wife #3. I've never remarried. I was 26 when I broke my neck. I did what everyone said I should do, and still ended up alone at 47. So fuck it. I live for me, my family, and the few friends who aren't pick mes. And men can fuck off, and go back to hell where they came from.

Thank you queen 😭 it is really hard to feel sane when our world is so crazy. My jaw dropped reading your story. You can't make any of this stuff up, as if these folks have selective empathy. Like they say on the podcast, a lot of people in our culture treat men's orgasm as if they will die without it, like food and water. And these people will throw women under the bus if said women are too inconvenient of an impediment to male orgasm/mommy mcbangmaid. I just can't. I feel less crazy knowing the same things (and sadly worse) have happened to my sisters here

Whew me too, girl.

I NEED to see where this is from! 😂

I think it's Britain's got talent

Me to!

"All the men I've liked, were attracted to, or dated/had relationships with.. none of them made the first move. Makes me wonder if I'd still be a virgin right now, lmao."

Girllll I am 90% sure I'd still be a virgin if I didn't switch switch into Pick-Me mode and practically invite myself into some guy's bed because I got so fed up with waiting.

He was disappointing (porn addict, ED), otherwise I would have been much more pro-casual sex at least until I ran into a bad lay. Men playing themselves, per usual...

I've been sexuallty inactive now for a long time (due to the poor dating market after my last LTR ended) and it makes ME feel ugly and undesirable. Things that used to be expected are now "too hard" for men: appropriately approaching, asking for a proper date, confirming the date, showing up to the date, not doing something with red flags/egregious during the date, and paying for the date. That's freaking it. The last ones would ask me out, get a boost of ego from the attention and not follow up, OR they would ask me out, tell me to order the cheaper thing, then whine about the price of an after-dinner hot drink. I can't. I treat my girl friends like this and it is no proble

Nah sis, we are the cruel ones going out with men we don't like for a "free dinner." Yes, we spend time getting ready, checking in with friends for safety, and spend time with a man who has the potential to harm us, but we are "bad" because he paid for £7 fish and chips 🤣

More like $5 for jus the chips, fish is too expensive! 🤣

And I know this is going to be a hot take, but this is exactly why I find it unproductive when people talk about their HVM.

Every so often someone will make a post asking the other queens how they met their HVM, what to look for, or some partnered queens will share their experiences finding their HVM. Of course, there's nothing bad about it inherently--having these examples of what real HVM are and do is very helpful! It shows us what to look for and what to avoid. And, I must admit, their accounts are romantic.

But it's a double-edged sword--because when we read stories like that, it keeps hope alive for us. As a matter of fact, I read one such post not too long ago where a queen was asking other queens about positive HVM stories, and one of the comments literally said, "please! Give us hope!" And I asked myself, 'Why does hope need to be kept alive?' Realistically, where has hope gotten us? When we read those stories, it inspires us to hold out just a bit longer.

Keep sifting through trash just a bit longer.

Stay on OLD just that bit longer.

Stay in that LVM relationship that we don't yet realize IS LVM just that bit longer.

When in reality, a lot of us should have given up a long time ago. At this point, we're spinning our wheels.

And I have compassion. It's a lot easier to keep hope alive that the right man will come along than to accept that he just might never come. And some dreams will never come to fruition.

I think if we're going to share stories of our HVM, there should be a disclaimer somewhere that acknowledges that although so-and-so found an HVM, there's no guarantee that the rest of us are going to find one. And that is not an insult to us. It is an objective fact because HVM are very, very rare, and as such, we should not get our hopes up. And that's really hard to hear. I don't blame my fellow queens for reading successful relationship stories and living vicariously through them a little bit. I've done that. I have to actively stop myself from doing that because it's not productive. But what can we do if we're all sifting through trash and we're tired of sifting through trash?

But this is where we need to put our big girl panties on and woman up and face the harsh truth that there's a real possibility it's not going to happen for us. And we have to act accordingly.

ETA: Now that I'm reading this over again, I forgot to mention that if we can't keep hope alive and we have to face the harsh reality, that's a lot of emotions to work through. I think a lot of us would struggle to not fall down and die when it really registers for us that we might never find an HVM. If we don't keep hope alive, then the hope... dies. And we might end up in a depressive rut. I think a lot of us are afraid we might never get out of it.

I appreciate your comments because you, like me, are trying to get at what to do next when the hope dies, when that reality sinks into your bones, your psyche, your spirit. That, quite frankly, sounds terrifying. Which is, once again, why I have a lot of compassion for the queens who want to keep hope alive.

I actually hate hope. I always say, "Hope is not a course of action." I like action and results. I make a plan and execute it. Waiting around for some guy to decide he wants to treat me well, like I deserve, is actually very painful. It's better just to accept reality. My mother is 82 and still hasn't met a good man. And she's beautiful, a concert pianist, grows flowers, and is a kind, loving woman. She's far more appealing than I am, yet she never met any decent men. And it's not her fault, or ours, that they just don't exist. The last good man I knew was my grandfather, and he died in 1988. I've prayed so many times for guidance and for a man like him with no answer except the next abusive arsehole to come into my life. No more.

The best thing women can do is plan to live their lives WITHOUT men. Buy your own home. Have your own kids. Adopt a pet. Travel. Get that degree or two. Don’t plan for a man to come along because it is highly likely that you will end up going your own way. I know most of us want and crave meaningful relationships with men, but until men start to shape up and be better people, the reality is most women will be happier, healthier, and more fulfilled being single and having friends. Men offer very little in ways of companionship and lovability right now which is unfortunate, but I’d say that looking at my generation, gen z, and my cousins in gen alpha and their friends, there is a LOT of hope coming up. I know a lot of little boys that can cook, clean, do their chores unprovoked, and who take their hygiene very seriously. And I’m not talking about just making box mac n cheese. I know at least 10 boys who can all cook real, nutritious meals with barely any oversight from their parents and who shower without having to be told. It’s absolutely amazing to see and I’m so proud of them. They’re very dif from my millennial brother who is basically a stay at home son. On the same page, a lot of little girls I know also are happy to be studying sciences and want to travel, pursue business ideas, and get an education before settling down. Also, the boy craziness is there a lil bit, but mostly these teenage girls are meh about boys and are more interested in their hobbies, their education, and their friends. I don’t want kids myself and I’m vicariously living through my cousins and watching them grow up has just given me a LOT of hope. They’re sweet, smart, talented, funny, bright individuals. I do want to add, I also see exactly where the problem starts and it’s with abusive men. We have a guy who abuses his gf, my aunt’s cousin, and her children are incredibly violent because of it. Their male violence (2 are boys, one is a lil girl) is ALWAYS taken out on their little sister bc she can’t fight back. It’s so sad. They’ll punch their sister, pinch her, push her, call her names, and just abuse her in front of everyone without shame. Everyone, even their mom, will try to correct it and scold the boys, but the boys are too far ingrained with the violence from their mom’s abusive bf to see what’s wrong with it. Like, the lil girl and I were on the couch playing video games and her middle brother came over and demanded the controller. To which I said no, it was her turn and then it was my turn, he could wait. Well, he reared up to smack his sister which made me gently push him away and tell him to go take a time out because hitting is wrong. He then tried to fake me out and so I grabbed his arms and pushed him away and then had to KEEP pushing him away bc he’s a child and I’m the adult and punching a kid is wrong. He eventually gave up, glared at me and then stomped away. That boy is like 5 or 6, the lil girl is the same age, and their brother is around 12/13. The lil girl was so sad tho so she just gave me the controller and walked away. It was heart breaking. Especially heart breaking cuz my sweetheart lil cousin will be so gentle and kind and loving (like, if he sees you’re thirsty he’ll being you a water or make you a snack if you’re hungry, unprovoked) until his 12/13 year old cousin is around. Then he turns into a completely different person all to appease the slightly older boy in the room. The dynamics are insane! It’s pretty clear he just does that tho so the teenager doesn’t hurt him tho cuz he’s 10 and smaller. But this is the only dynamic where I see the violence coming from: violent men raising more violent, misogynistic men. None of the other children I know are violent. Anyway, I think this also stresses the importance of having healthy family dynamics because the better a kid is raised, the better they’ll be. If the man you’re with is LV, your kids will likely be, too. Gotta be picking the right men for the sake of the kids.

Yes, the friends with benefits movies (the one w Mila Kunis and the one with Natalie Portman) IIRC both involve a romance at the end. We are setting girls and women up for failure as a culture :( I know I never wanted FWB, and if I considered it, it was in hope the man would eventually see what he could have and love me. I was lucky not to do it, but other women my age? :/

Exactly! Women have been pressured by women's mags to do what the man wants and "keep things interesting/spicy" within months of dating, but it has really magnified in the 2010s, including the push to normaloze porn and . It feels like men just want us to act out porn fantasies or facilitate paraphilias instead of actually being turned on by our bodies and our pleasure. It is robotic and not a human connection. It is awful. On top of that, we also have to worry about getting strangled during sex or kissing (which nonfatal strangulation can cause serious health effects like stroke) but the men just get a slap on the wrist: "JuSt AsK hEr PeRmIsSiOn NeXt TiMe, SiLly!" Ugh.