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Previously on FDS!
I made a post where I said an influencer striked me as a megalomaniac and I didn’t like her. We had a respectful discussion about this where none was insulted despite disagreements.
Last night, upon scrolling FDS after a while, I found out that said influencer has responded publicly to my post (which was never meant as a conversation with her, but with this community). I discovered this because an FDS user “alerted” me with a post, not by empathizing with the fact that visibility might not be everyone’s cup of tea, but by ridiculing me for having “lost” such a (non existent) debate and by accusing me of cowardly deleting the post, like I owed someone anything.
I am not particularly interested in what this influencer said about my post, but I feel so, so deeply disappointed in this forum, because of how much it meant to me.
Today on FDS I've learned that:
voicing a negative opinion about a public figure as a random stranger is internalized misogyny, women bashing and "bullying";
not wanting to engage with an influencer's content is being stupid, unfair and somehow also internalized misogyny;
not being interested in listening to a public figure bashing me publicly is unfair to such public figure;
generally not giving a shit about influencer drama is a character flaw.
I thought women deserved BOUNDARIES.
Well, it definitely doesn't feel like my boundaries were respected here today.
In my original post, we all had different opinions about said influencer but no one demanded that anybody else “get it”. I didn’t feel the need to pile on women who told me they like her, and no one was mean to me for not liking her. You can watch whatever the fuck you like, or don’t. You can like whatever the fuck you like.
You’re entitled to your boundaries. AND SO AM I. Boundaries are NOT demanding other people to feel the same as you do about a specific thing. One of the biggest milestones I’ve reached in my life is not caring if I’m liked or disliked, and not taking personally other people’s boundaries and preferences. It took a long way to get here, and I am not going back. How come that of all places, I have to justify this on FDS?!
Today on FDS I’ve also learned that internet celebrities who make a lot of money out of their followers are fragile creatures in need of rescuing from a cruel world who doesn’t get them (tragic!). And that we all need to make sure we get them!
Ladies I am shocked and concerned by this.
Why are you so emotionally invested in these people to the point of overriding rationality (by insisting I deleted a post I never deleted, for instance)?
Why the fuck are you feeling so deeply sorry for internet celebrities who are doing just fine? Do you understand they’re running a business and not really trying to save you? That they need “haters” and “superfans” to capitalize on the algorithm? Can you see that a negative post is just another day on the job for someone who chooses that path?
And have you realized that you don't actually know this people personally, you only see a carefully curated image and you have no fucking clue if they truly deserve your unconditional trust and worshipping?
It's ok to follow influencers.
But if you’re so emotionally invested in an influencer to the point of wanting to override other people’s likes, dislikes, opinions, boundaries, and to the point of seeing disagreement as some sort of wrongdoing, I beg you to take a step back and take back control of your emotions, your mind and your life. This is not a healthy mindset. Being overinvested in internet figures and internet drama can seriously deteriorate your mental health. I know it because it happened to me too, and I do not wish it upon anybody (including people who I argued with today).
And since I’m planning of taking my own advice, I will keep hanging around here less than before, especially since I don’t recognize the original FDS anymore. It’s ok, things don’t last forever.
Finally, today I’ve also learned that anything you write on the internet is public. Whether it’s redpillers or influencers guarding their reputation, we are all on some other boards/platform being ridiculed for posting here, including when we’re at our most vulnerable. Be aware of this when you post, because you think you know it, but it doesn’t feel great when it actually happens.
Gina
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ETA to add something I wrote in the comment section, that's very important to me.
My main criticism was that in the receipts I provided (screeshots) she felt above feminism and feminist literature (hence the charismatic leader vibes, which many people here have agreed with me upon).
I argued that having a movement where you're not a paying customer or a follower is important to women.
You behaving like a personal defender and a follower, just keeps proving my point.
We should be running the show, as activists, researchers, catalists of change, in our communities.
Feminism is a proactive "we", is not a superior "I" who leads the masses, and to say otherwise is a fundamental misunderstanding of feminism.
Influencers can definitely contribute with some personal insight, but they can't possibly be 100% right about everything, none of them, and ESPECIALLY if they claim to be. They aren't our saviors. We are.
As much as I don't like Princella Clark, this isn't entirely about her. It's about the kind of dynamics that we've seen at play here in past 2 days. It's about the fact that I refuse to accept influencers as The Gospel, ESPECIALLY in feminism.
Capitalism is making us lonely and isolated.
Then it's giving us coaches, teachers, influencers, Youtubers, Tiktokers, to replace community and activism with entrepreneurs who "have figured it out" and "have found the solution for only 49.99 $".
They have to create engagement, and they do it through "online communities" and shitstorms and radicalizing people, but it's all meant to make the algorithm spin so they can run their business. They need to convince you they are the one and only source of truth, and in the process of doing that, guess what? You do become more lonely and isolated. You start choosing your Youtuber bubble over imperfect connections with real people and real life. And that makes you think that they're right! People don't get it! You are lonely after all... But at least you and the other followers in the bubble have each other! At least you have The Leader! Guess who's benefit from all this? Not you. And mostly, NOT FEMINISM.
ALL internet personalities are using these playbook. ALL of them. This is our life under digital capitalism. If I had to open a coaching business tomorrow, I would have to do the same. This is digital marketing 101. It's not unique to Princella. HOWEVER..
Some of these people, who are trying to give us input and offering us a service, are doing it more ethically than others. What do I mean by ethical?
That there's a difference between positioning yourself as someone with a valuable input, and positioning yourself as an omniscent person who has all the answers and sees the world in terms of black and white thinking (either you're with me or against me, everyone who doesn't agree is a hater, I am the best of all). If you have a platform and you run it with such an attitude, you're being unethical. I'm not saying you are necessarily dishonest, if you have narcissistic traits you truly believe that you are the best of all. But that doesn't make it less unethical.
No one is "the best of all".
And I despise those who market themselves in this way, taking advantage of people's need for something to cling to in a fucked up world.
When you mix this with feminism, it makes me even angrier. Influencers are destroying actual feminism. They need to position themselves as above others to run their business. They need women to grow apart to run their business. They need us to protest via our keyboards rather than organize politically. AND THIS IS THE OPPOSITE OF FEMINISM. I'll say it again:
Feminism is every woman's responsibility. We should be running the show, as activists, researchers, catalists of change, in our communities, not just behind our screens taking advice from Youtubers.
Feminism is a proactive "we", it's not a superior "I" who leads the masses, and to say otherwise is a fundamental misunderstanding of feminism.
But I guess I'm just petty 😅
I wasn't really caught up with the incident you're speaking of so I cannot comment on that in detail, however there is one thing I can say; I totally agree with you about FDS no longer being the same. It is such a damn pity too because FDS helped me outgrow people pleasing and pickmeshaing, but now it seems to be full of petty drama and low value behavior... It's rather ironic that a forum dedicated to leveling up fosters such conduct. For the recond, in general (because I have no clue who the youtuber is nor do I care to bc I do not care for podcasts) I think critiquing people is totally fine as long as it is done civilly. I mean, is that not what FDS does when it calls out pickmesha behavior? Would calling out pickmeshas be considered woman bashing or internalized misogyny? No?
Right, I didn't think so. It's because there's a distinction between critique and outright bashing. We can respect each other while still holding each other accountable for our actions, this includes calling out lv behavior/actions for what it is. Critiquing a public figure is no different. We can have different opinions about public figures while still respecting them as well as others who may hold differing opinions on said public figures. We can respectfuly agree to disagree. From what I do understand, I'm sure the youtuber in question has some valid points/moments when she's right about whatever it is she talks about, but the fact of the matter is IT IS PETTY to be a public figure and get offened and defensive at critique. If you put yourself in the public, you should be ready for critique or else the public/fame lifestyle isn't for you. The critique comes with the turf. Now is all critique respectful? No, obviously not. Do I wish everyone could just be respectful of each other so bashing didn't have to come with the "turf?" Of course! But unfortunately we do not live in such a world so it's an unfortunate reality that we just have to accept. In addition to it being petty, there is also a gross power disparity when an influencer "responds" to critique coming from a specific and ordinary person (as opposed to responding to critique coming from a general mass) thanks to this wonderful thing (/s) known as witch hunting by fanantical fans. Influencers are aware of this, which is why I REALLY cannot dismiss it when they behave this way - it always feels deliberate.
And no, you can't "prove" opinions wrong (or right because they aren't facts)! If Gina's opinion is that the youtuber comes off as a narc, then that is HER opinion and SHE's entitled to it. Honestly, would all of this be happening if the female youtuber in question was a man? If you formulated a negative opinion of a man based on his actions, would you be okay with him trying to convince you that you're wrong for formulating that opinion? To prove that you are wrong for having that opinion of him? What if all his friends came and started telling you how "wrong" you are for having that opinion, how would you feel then? (Note: it is fine to share your opinion if it differs and you can even explain why you hold a differing opinion. That is fine. What's problematic is asserting that your own opinion is "correct" or "superior" to differing opinions, or, alternatively, putting down others for having opinions that differ from your own).
If anything, the fact that she found FDS just to do "damage control" gives Gina's opinion some merit because it quite literally is a narcissistic trait/act to control the image people have of you. I can respect that youtuber as a person while still holding her accountable by acknowledging the fact that she acted in a petty and, by virture of that, low value manner. I disapprove of her ACTIONS. Nevertheless, I do not think less of her as a person. Disapproval of one's actions does not equate to bashing.
This is true queen stuff right here! I've taken a much needed break from this forum only to find that it has gone soo downhill filled with the same low value behavior FDS is meant to unfuck us from.
There is a moderator looking into this post so that's why its not visible currently. I'm sorry you had to deal with further harassment from this user(who has also cussed me out and claimed "women are fuckin crybabies" all because I called for less male depravity/reddit reposts 🥴 they deleted that comment of course.
As for Princella, it's unhinged that she made a 3 HOUR LONG ASS video ranting and going on a tangent in response to your post that wasn't even directly messaged to her. Talk about being chronically online and being triggered.
You're so right that we are all entitled to our own opinions and boundaries. FDSers of all people should understand that.
I'm not very aware of the posts at issue (I remember yours, but don't know anything about Princella so didn't read it, and likewise with the other post).
But I very much agree about the quality of content here. Much has been said on that in other posts, which I agree with, so I won't rant. (But additionally, geezy peets, sometimes I feel like I'll get called a pickme just for saying I'm currently happy in my relationship.)
As far as following online people/movements, my philosophy has always been that any single person or movement is never going to get things 100% right. Everything I consume, I don't consume as gospel, I consume as "something to think about". I enjoy discussing because then I get other people's opinions to also think about. But that's where it ends; then I go out and live my actual life. So I wholeheartedly agree with you there.
This whole debacle triggered me: I lost my last male "friend" to Tate/redpillers. He began spewing the most cult-like language and honestly, some of those defending Princella were using the exact same language.
This ex-friend ranted for hours about his views and whenever I disagreed he’d say “you clearly didn’t listen, go watch his podcast, here I’ll spam u links” and would get defensive or dismiss me when I'd say something even though he wanted an "open debate". Like dude, I heard you for hours so I DID listen, I just don't agree!! I gave genuine critiques and questions but he kept shushing me and insisting I wasn't listening or "hadn't done my research". Then when I tried to leave he started throwing personal attacks and verbal abuse at me to the point I ran away and blocked him. Why make it so personal? Why does it matter so much that I see things differently?? It was like I wasn't allowed to have my own take, which is controlling behaviour.
For those who idolise their influencers, go ahead! But don’t shove your views down other women’s throats or bully them into submission when they've already said no. It's disrespectful to these women and we're supposed to be a sisterhood. Respect their right to maintain their own Queendom and remember to go touch grass every now and then.
Coming out of my months long hiatus to say: this is precisely why I quit FDS silently some time ago. I'm glad I saw the signs early. Sad to see it had to come to this. I invited a few users I wanted to keep in touch with on a Discord back then, if anyone else (who is also appalled at what this forum has become) wants to join, feel free to DM me.
FWIW I was surprised by that recent post too. I don't know much about Princella Clark, but the little I've seen leans towards cultish. The fact that some people react disproportionately negatively when she is criticised only makes the cult vibe stronger.
I wanted to make a similar post, since when did FDS users become so fucking mean to each other? Literally high school mean girl shit. I don’t think we’ll ever get back to the root on how we used to be. This forum has never felt or been on the same level as the subreddit. The podcast has been dead for 2 months and we’ll be getting new hosts shortly. The discord has also been pretty dead. The bi weekly war room where you got to chat with the hosts also kinda fell apart when Reaux and Savannah took personal time. Which I completely understand, not faulting them. Real life comes first. But I’ve had to downgrade my Patreon subscription. You’re right, nothing lasts forever. I’m choosing to view FDS as an old nostalgic friend who helped me greatly in my times of need and now it’s time to move on. I’ll take the lessons I learned here and improve my life. But this here ain’t it. It’s sad to see what FDS has become but all good things must come to an end.
That celeb and her defenders are the whole circus 🎪 🤡
The quality of content/posters on here has definitely decreased. I'm on here less, too. So, I hear you.
That said, you can have whatever opinion you want.
I was disappointed to see things devolve to personal attacks - not necessary.
If I may... It seems like you do care what people think of you... or maybe it was the personal attacks that tipped you off -which is fair.
And that's fine, you can (care).
But really.... who caaaares? Not abbout you, I mean, but about the whole internet internetting and the drama.
I'm somewhat neutral on said 'influencer' but really she talks a lot of smack.
Let it fall off like water off a duck's back, queen.
She created content.
You had an opinion about it.
She had an opinion about your opinion.
That's it. People have opinions.
Let that ish go and continue livin your best life? Is it really worth your mental energy?
This is the first time I've heard of the incident, but pretty much I agree with your rant here considering public figures etc. I used to lurk the subreddit before I came here, and I have to admit that this place seems like a far cry from what it used to be. In terms of toxicity this place is like chernobyl, I've seen even rational comments and posts get backlash and dunked on for the pettiest of reason. Of course we need to call out bad behavior, but sometimes it just goes wayy to far. Also have to mention that this site in itself is a disaster: very laggy and sometimes borderline unusable. I understand that the admin team doesn't have much resources and it's fine, but what's even the point if this place is barely even alive to begin with. It's kinda sad that at the moment that this is the best we have in terms of a radfem community, while far-right and misogynistic sites are dime a dozen and thriving like no tomorrow.
Every community attracts its crazies.
I like Princella. I appreciate that she directs our attention to biology and highlights interesting studies. Yet, there are aspects of her approach that don’t entirely resonate with me. Same goes for Melany or Shera. Their insights are significant, and I’ve certainly found valuable takeaways, but I’ve come to understand that there isn’t one person on Earth that I agree with 100% or like 100%. And that’s normal.
I wanted to add this to the discussion because I’ve seen myself going through the following cycle several times. First, I discover a content creator and become a fan of their work, then later I encounter opinions or attitudes that differ from mine, which leaves me feeling slightly disappointed. But over time, I grow to appreciate and integrate the aspects that did resonate with me and let go of the rest. I’m piecing together my own philosophy, which feels right. And I think the parasocial dynamics of this process are worth reflecting upon too.
Tbh Princella roasted your comment , my comment in response, and this whole site 😂.
I'll be reconsidering my participation on this website. Why should we be putting all this energy behind finding 1% of men versus putting that energy into ourselves? Hard to argue with that.
The whole thing seemed like a simple misunderstanding. Princella made a post that came off to someone as sounding arrogant, but really Princella was just trying to call in the blessings she wanted to see into her life.
Tempest in a teapot. 🫖
Gina,
I mean no offense, but the only person blowing Princella out of proportion here is you. You seem to intentionally "bulk up" anything she says so that you can justify complaining about her. Let me offer these comments not out of snark, but just some genuine thoughts and questions that might be helpful:
Your whole post is an ad hominem attack on both Princella and people who are enthusiastic about or support her views. Nowhere do you actually spell out anything substantive Princella has said that you take issue with. In fact, it seems like you don't know what her views are. These sorts of posts would be more enjoyable if you actually specified a position she holds that you disagree with and why, and we commenters could entertain your disagreement. Instead, you draw all sorts of unsupported conclusions about her and those who agree with her based on her "vibe" or certain comments she's made in contexts you don't seem to follow. I suggest you watch her video with the amazingly wonderful psychoanalyst Previn Karian to see how normal people who disagree with one another engage the other's view: What is the TRUE problem with men? - YouTube
Feminists ask for and expect payment and/or financial support from followers all the time. Angela Davis turns down speaking gigs at even poor universities if she's offered less than $25,000 for the hour. Most well-regarded feminist speakers/ thinkers are paid honoraiums (at minimum) that typically go for $5,000 to $10,000. While in college, I had to give my last $20 in my checking account at the time to see Gloria Steinem at a feminist event. You are not a capitalist pig just because you expect to be paid (and in many cases, paid well) for your intellectual work/ effort/ research. And just because you disagree with a person's work or viewpoints does not entail that person shouldn't get paid by people who DO like their work or viewpoints.
How are you defining "influencer" because I would not categorize Princella as one. My former university advisor has a YouTube channel in which he explains in depth his particular philosophical view/ theory about "R"eality. It's his own view- he made it up and applies it to all sorts of random cases. He asks people to donate to him all the time even though he earns over $100,000 a year as a tenured professor (his academic area is contract law). He has more followers than Princella. Would you consider him to be a pointless "influencer"? I watch every video he posts because I'm fascinated by his interpretation of what constitutes "R"eality. Is he a cultleader and I'm just his brainwashed follower because I enthusiastically support/ defend his views when in conversation with others?
I recently finished reading a biography on Rene Descartes. He is the philosopher/ mathematician that changed the world's perspective on science and allowed science to move away from the Church's authority. Galileo was one of his contemporaries and they had nearly identical scientific theories. Descartes sucked up to everyone who could give him money and he hoped to secure a lifelong stiped from someone/ ANYONE because he didn't want a "real" job- he simply wanted to spend his time focusing on research. Like most human beings, he was worried about money and wanted to use his passion in life to earn him that money. Princella is a single mom with a regular day job. Why is it a problem that she is asking members to contribute financially when she's spending so much of her time reading articles and putting together a view that is benefiting those members' lives (per their own testimony)? What's wrong with her earning money from her passion?
Why do you interpret Princella as being "above" feminist literature and feminism when all she said was she doesn't identify as a feminist and doesn't read feminist literature?? That is a huge leap to make. Do you know who else didn't identify as a feminist and thought feminism was silly (until she was 60 or 70 years old)? Simone de Beauvoir. A person's work can be interesting, revolutionary and beneficial to women even if that person doesn't identify as a feminist. Maybe Princella just likes reading other kinds of stuff? Maybe feminist texts never interested her? Why are you so angry that Princella just isn't interested in feminism?! She said she came to her own conclusions based on life experiences. Yes, many of those conclusions overlap with what some feminist texts reveal. I think that just means women have similar experiences with men, and so they come to the same conclusions even if they never read eachothers' books, right?
If you don't like her, dont watch her videos. I just don't see the point of making a whole ass post about not liking one individual, filled with ad hominem attacks using exaggerations like cult leader and megalomaniac outside of their dictionary definitions, rather than a genuine dissection/analysis of the content itself.
Then making yourself the victim when when she analyzes that post on her own platform (rules for thee not for me), reducing her to "influencer"which most people imagine as a shallow fashionista taking cute pics to make anyone questioning you seem like dumb idol-worshippers. She said she does not teach dating strategy and that is a good freaking point, what did you hope to accomplish discussing her personality/likeability of all things, in the context of a dating startegy website? This is not a gossip website either.
I really can't see what any of this has to do with "boundaries" and it most definetly sounds likey ou give a shit. Literally starting the shit and then surprised pikachu when you realize this forum is public and thus open to scrutiny by anyone.
"One of the biggest milestones I’ve reached in my life is not caring if I’m liked or disliked, and not taking personally other people’s boundaries and preferences" - but sis, you have now made a long post about how outraged you were that a few people pushed back (but probably even more agreed on some level). Be honest with yourself. The audacity is next level.
Hilarious how you made an entire post bashing another woman while taking no time to actually research the foundations/ science behind what she said, and now are playing victim after she and others corrected your rudeness and false assumptions. Sounding seriously delulu, sis. I encourage everyone to actually go and read the original post and Princella's response instead of forming an opinion based on this self-victimizing retelling of events which has little grounding in reality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEKNWaBjs88&t=2828s