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For reference, I'm 55, which means born in 1968. Twice married, widowed most recently, divorced 90s. Solo world traveler, retired English teacher. I have plenty of life experience.
After nearly seven years being widowed, I'm tentatively dipping my toes back into the dating pool. For me that means being passively on Facebook OLD, and it's a dumpster fire. I've been on it for a couple of years, and I've had zero dates, maybe half a dozen conversations, nothing else. Nothing ever goes anywhere. There seems to be zero initiative. Perhaps, though, that's the nature of OLD: everyone is a commodity, and there are always more choices out there. No one is special; you're just another face in a crowd. If there are any better options, I'm all ears.
Growing up, I remember men just seemed to have it more together, and I fully admit my age; like most, I grew up an unconscious pick-me because that was just the way of things, although it never sat well with me, and I always thought there has to be more, a better way to have power over our own lives, autonomy, sovereignty, and be able to choose what we want in life. I used to be a liberal feminist, but that changed beyond all recognition, not for the better. FDS and being a rad fem is now closer to what I believe.
I remember men dressed better -- think Cary Grant, and all the old-time celebrities. They had elan, grace, elegance, style. And maybe my point of view is colored by Hollywood movies, too, I fully admit. I also like that in one way, the world is more open, casual, accepting... but it just seems like most men, most people, just dress schlubby these days. I am not a fashion model by any means; tee shirts and pants here all the time, but I dress neatly. What I'm seeing is that so many men and people in general aren't even neatly dressed and groomed.
These days, though, it just seems like men are either herpy-derpy dudebros who are man-children, or really angry, controlling, severe patriarchs. Men these days seem to lack everything from common sense, to manners, drive, ambition, personal style, a sense of themselves, just everything. Seriously, everything seems to be lacking. When did this happen? I was way out of the dating scene from the early 90s til now. Things with men overall just seem rather dire, and quite frankly either disturbingly hilariously surreal, or disturbingly hilariously patriarchal. Thanks.
The internet. That is what happened.
Men are angrier and even more chronically online and controlling now than they were before 2020. The OLD algorithms make it so OLD customers don’t ever stop being OLD customers. You have so much more awareness now of the true nature of most men; I’m your age and a lot of this is we women now know too much - in a good way. Hugs, sis!
You're around my mom's age! After my scrote dad left I figured there was no hope for my mom in the modern dating pool. He left when I was in university so I was worried about her, naturally. She never seemed to be able to function alone. I couldn't see her making an online dating account so this would be far from a quick and systematic process.
So eventually my mom's friend says she knows this guy that she's told about my mom and he really wants to meet her and what do I think and ok, sure. We go for a breakfast for someone's birthday and meeting him I realize all the main things I read about his personality are basically the same things I'd tell people about mom. I agreed they should at least meet.
They've been together 4 or 5 years now I think? My mom ended up getting cancer and he was there for her unwaveringly. Like for a fact I know my dad would have never. At most, he would have pawned almost all of it off on me. This man was raised right though. You can tell he's got those values and morals and he's even got a naivete that's adorable and refreshing. He went through various abuses early in life and became a staunch advocate for the vulnerable. He barely has anything for giving to others. He's what my mom deserves.
Reading your post I agree with you and would personally be the first person to be like yup there's no hope but even being as deeply skeptical as I am there's an instance of what we all want unfolding right in front of my eyes so I have to acknowledge that they're out there and it's possible!
Gen X'er here as well. Men were always trash. We just didn't see it before because we too were brainwashed by patriarchy, and had rose colored glasses on. Idk what men dressed like Cary Grant back in the 80s and 90s though. From what I remember growing up on the east coast of America, everyone was into death metal (Metallica, Slayer, Pantera) hair bands (Poison, Skid Row, Megadeth), British 80s (The Cure, Pet Shop Boys, The Smiths) , Grunge rock (Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Sound Garden) or we had the other group of people that were into Madonna, Michael Jackson and Prince, so idk what 80s/90s you grew up in that had males dressing in Cary Grant style but not in America. Everyone was wearing torn jeans, heavy metal tshirts, long hair for males, and aqua net hair sprayed the fuck out hair for females. Cary Grant was the 50s. But to answer your question, I think pre-internet, males had more motivation to court females properly because that was the only way they could have access to our vaginas. NOW, post internet, they have countless options on apps, so if one female doesn't give him sex immediately, why put in the effort when the next female will give it up easily??? It also has to do with libfem ideology, which in my opinion was created by males to benefit males, where women are giving up their vaginas with zero expectations in return because that's called "being empowered" now. So men aren't motivated to put any effort in, because the next female will feel eMpOwErEd by giving away her vagina for nothing.
You are spot on with how men look now. Recently, at my workplace there is a man who was very good looking, dressed well, groomed well, in very good physical shape. He spoke with intelligence, including emotional. And you know the bar is so low for men when I found it very attractive that he could enunciate his words properly. LOLsad. And I noticed over multiple times of seeing him that he was not wearing a ring. While he did not work for the same employer, but a different one in another suite, he would make a point of stopping to say hello to me in passing. He acted interested in me. I was considering giving it a go and flirting back. But something was just nagging at me. Men just.....aren't that put-together. He looked around my age, about 40ish. And men just aren't single and look like that, at this age. Sure enough, glad I waited because I finally saw a ring on him. And a few days later, a wife and a gaggle of children showed up to greet "dad" at work.
I'll admit I was disappointed. I got a little hope going on there. But that man only looked like that because there was a woman somewhere taking care of him.
I've realized the single men we're looking for don't exist, if they do they're one in a million. 20 some years ago, my own brother would try to take care of himself: dress, grooming, and working out. And he would get made fun of for being a "metrosexual" by his male friends. I helped him with that, and he kept up with it, thankfully. And back to the work-guy, I look a lot like his wife. We could be sisters. No wonder I grabbed his attention. I don't think he was interested in me, just that I was a doppelganger for his wife. I think the universe protected me and gave me a gentle rejection without the humiliation.
I know men your age who possess all the attributes you describe - employed, financially stable, able to present themselves appropriately, social skills, consideration for others etc. The thing is they are very happily married. The ones who are divorced tend to get snapped up by women very quickly.
OLD is a dumpster fire.
I think fashion designers are to blame (for the clothes), there are now $3,000 sweatpants. It's all po mo anything goes.
yes. they are most definitely devolving. there is no other word to describe the situation.
the ones who groom, dress well, have initiative, are providers and know how to flirt are sexist. the ones who aren't sexist don't even wash their hairs, don't provide at all, don't exercise, can't flrit at all, have no initiative ("women can have initiative too. why does it have to be the man?"). they are baically children.
i guess they are incapable of being decent. there's always a trade off.
I ask myself the same question all the time and I think @QueenCollett has nailed it.
I also wholeheartedly agree with your observation about the schlubby (love this term!) dressing. I think it's a reflection of the fact that, as you say, things in society generally have become much more relaxed and informal. While this is by no means a bad thing, I do think we've overcorrected slightly on this one and that there is a distinction between dressing informally and rocking up looking like a bag of unwashed laundry. If I see one more guy sitting in a nice restaurant wearing scruffy jeans and t shirt at the dinner table while his partner has clearly put some effort in I will throw myself out of the nearest window. It's fucking embarrassing.
"rather dire", indeed. In . Deed.
I saw an interesting post over on https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/373594/testosterone-levels-plummeting-in-young-men-due-to-porn-consumption , and I will quote two poignant comments there. The article in The Sun was exactly what we have been saying on FDS. Not commenting on the rest of the site I'm quoting, but I felt so seen and heard from these two particular comments:
Comment One: "I don't know if this will be an unpopular opinion here, but I honestly feel like there's something lacking in most men today that I don't know how to describe other than 'manliness'?
Nearly every man my age (young millennial) that I know is lacking qualities that I see as desirable in a male partner. That's not to say these qualities are manly in that women can't have them, but I'm struggling to think of any other way to describe it.
They're under-muscled - not necessarily overweight in every case, but with a softness and shapelessness to their body and a 'meh'ness about how they move. I'm not at all looks focussed when it comes to dating, but there's an instinctive attraction missing when a man doesn't have that strength and vibrancy. I'm not talking about big biceps and a six pack, I mean that most men have NO muscle tone anymore.
They aren't decisive . They seem to lack direction in their career and their personal lives, they don't seem to decide upon a career and pursue it, or ask out a woman that they like and stick to the relationship, they just seem so 'meh' and let everything happen to them. So many of them sit online talking about how they can't get laid, but do they ever tell a woman they like her, and then be patient in getting to know her?
They don't have a protective instinct. Maybe they never did, but it's my impression that men used to at least pride themselves on being a good provider, looking after their family, proving their masculinity by taking care of those less able etc. Now they're online bragging about how they never pay for the woman's meal on a date. They just shrug when a creepy man at the bar is creeping on you, or when some guy on drugs is yelling at you in the street. They just don't seem to want to protect anyone anymore. They might say "You wanted equality lol", but decent HUMANS should have an instinct to protect more vulnerable humans and be generous where they can. They never seem to be proud of what they can do for women or for society at large, it's all 'meh'.
Generally, they don't care about their outward appearance. If you look at footage/photos from 1950s and beforehand, men are dressed in smart clothes and have their hair styled. They don't all need to be Henry Cavill, it's just that a bit of care in how you look makes you seem (and feel) more decisive, more deserving of respect, more attractive to women and employers. I genuinely struggle to think of any well-dressed men that I know, whereas being well-dressed has continued to be a priority to women.
Maybe men never did have these qualities and I'm idealising based on media from the early 20th century. I don't know. But that's my 2 cents. I don't know enough about science to know whether it's porn use, or indeed whether lowered testosterone is a bad thing, considering how aggressive it seems to make people. But I do think the things that made men desirable to straight women are in very short supply now."
Another comment: "You are stating the EXACT things my young adult daughter says about men. She went on a trip to a country that has a lot of poverty, but she kept noting how strong and attractive the men were....I'm sure they have the same levels of shit men there (rape and assault) but I found this very interesting that she noted a very strong difference. She also said that her friends talk about how so many men they know can't get erections...this has been an issue for her friends since they started having sex, so around 16/17 and now in early 20s...a lot of the boys who couldn't were also taking anti-depressants, so that could be another issue. I'm in my 50s. NEVER did young men have erection issues unless they were so drunk they were falling over (and even then, most could maintain one). Even my own Nigel, in his 50s, seems far more virile than what I'm hearing from you young women... Seriously, 24/7 porn is likely the main contributor, but I'd also question medications."
It's grim out there.
On youtube I've seen 1950's and 1945 video's because I wanted to do my research to see if men are like this during that time too and I've noticed men are a lot more mature, grounded and seem to be holding a conversation. I know most of it is just acting but still.
Maybe I'm an old soul but I really like how the ppl in the 1950's plan dates, the gentleman pays for the dinner, He moves the chair to the side so she can sit, he pours her glass first before he attend to his own and when they leave he offers his vest to her and when he drops her off at the door he then knows that his responsibility for her has come to an end because he brought her back in one piece.
No inappropriate touching, no request for sex and he has a night to his own to decide if they connected, after the movie was over they decided to part ways on good terms and that was it.
"Gold diggers" Can only take advantage of things that men will allow, If you choose to pay for a woman all the time and she has no plans to marry you or be official they why bother continue to see her? If there is no spark or connection on the first date then it's time to move on.
If the so called gold digger calls you and only want dinner then cut her off, I don't understand why men whine about gold diggers but continue to entertain those women.
Why not date a woman you want to marry and she wants to marry you too? oh no they don't want that, they want to sleep with you, have the husband privilege and then decide if they are interested in marrying you.
I'm a bit careful with dating because so far I've never been treated with the respect I want, I went on a date not too long ago and I spoke about marriage, we'll sign a prenup what's yours is yours what's mine is mine etc. And I wanted to be married after a year of dating. He wanted sex but I said no because what's the point of buying a cow if you get the milk for free.
He said "I want to know how well you are in bed before I marry you" and he said If I want to get married still we could get married have sex and then divorce because I want to get to know you better before I commit"
Even my pickme brain gave signals that he's not a red flag, he's a lighthouse.
It's a good Question: 'What the hell happened'?
It seems like men’s worse fear nowadays is that they’ll have bad sex or not the wildest craziest pleasure of their lives if they get truly committed to someone or plan to be. In their minds, it must be very sad because once they “sample” that is the pinnacle of their excitement and interest and the more you give them, the less they appreciate it and the less valuable it is to them. They want your labor (sexual, mental, emotional, etc.) whether you truly want to consent to it or not. And that’s more and more true as you see how they compare women to objects and seem to reserve all their real love and affection towards other men(their bros) or sometimes even only themselves)
You’re a bit younger than my mother but I think I have to agree. I think all the apps and websites make people value and place value at the wrong things. I’ve seen women give advice on how to make their posts interesting to men even if it contradicted with their values and what they were looking for in a potential life partner. OLD keeps you constantly disappointed, and constantly searching but I think in actuality real success is a very small minority. I’ve gotten a lot better at vetting and seeing who is worth my time before blocking and deleting, but the bar is so low even low value men can sometimes seem a bit better when compared to their competition.
My grand theory on society right now is "America-is-a-lotus-eating-machine" but applies to the planet, really. The modern world can cater to any fantasy -porn is the obvious, but also any subculture like mermaids or cooking or hiking or whatever you can think of- and it's easy to get lost in the subculture.
Around me, the fantasy is "you can be a teenager and read Batman comics forever" even though you are almost 50. There is a nice guy I know, has Star Wars figures in his living room... I want to shake him, but he is stuck in that nice fantasy. His wife is no better, reading fanfic and Tumblr at age 35. So it's not just men doing this.
I don't know if this is helpful, but I know a single man in your age bracket and he used a matchmaking service to find dates. I would think (hope) that people using a matchmaker are serious about finding a partner, not just a hook-up, so maybe it's better than OLD.