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Hello, I'm resposting this old reddit post from the FDS subreddit from user u/DjinnFox. It was a really good post but the archive didn't save any of the comments and I want to get people's opinions. I am not u/DjinnFox.
Hello, I’m new here and reading through the rules, and when I got to the “don’t live with him” rule and I get where it’s coming from, it’s not wrong in a lot of ways....
I just have a long-term dating theory/strategy that requires pre-marriage co-habitation for the woman’s benefit. The rules post said something to the effect of “Why live with him? To see if he cleans a toilet?” In a dismissive way and I’m like screaming “YES.”
Many men can keep a place clean when they live alone, because no one else is there to pick up the responsibility and they want to impress the woman they’re dating. Seeing his clean apartment/place over years of dating doesn’t mean anything imo.
We all know one of the biggest modern and ancient disparities between men and women today is the division of domestic and emotional labor.
Once you live together for months/years, you see how he really functions and how the division of labor in your relationship will really look. Is he aware of the disparity? Does he take it upon himself to regularly plan things, do domestic and emotional labor without you saying a word? Or did he just drop the ball when you moved in and your relationship started looking a whole lot more 1950’s?
If you’d waited till you were married, it’s a lot harder to leave then, isn’t it? Isn’t it better to date, cohabitate for a few years and if he isn’t marriage material or doesn’t propose in a timely manner, you can leave him.
Marrying a man-baby in disguise is common asf I think. A lot of men function till they get their bangmaidwives locked down and then they revert to treating her like she’s their mother. A lot of them do this specifically after marriage because then they feel they own you because marriage historically was about giving the bride away to the man like property and that shit is deep in our society’s subconscious imo, so he now feels a sense of ownership and security to treat his new wife like a bangmaid until he can further lock her down with the title of bangmaidnanny once she pops out his spawn.
I don’t think living with a man means you have to give up your independence or your finances. You don’t have to join bank accounts and can just get to know each other while living together for a few years. You can be on top of your BC and not involve him and remain independent imo.
My thoughts are that if you live with him you can better pay attention to how much domestic/emotional labor he does without you having to ask. If you do ask or try to explain it to him, see what he does with that info, does he brush you off or does he listen? Does change his behavior with that info and do his own research to do better?
The way I see it is that we could flip the script on this. It is true that we are not auditioning to be their wife, they are auditioning to be our husband and living together is dress rehearsal imo.
You could say that the respect part of this rule would safeguard from this problem, but a lot of respectful men have blind spots in this area. They aren’t conditioned by the patriarchy to even think about these things and until more and more men experience living with and getting a taste of queens that leave when they don’t shape up their domestic/emotional labor skills, they won’t learn and will trap more women into marriages of domestic servitude.
Not saying it’s our job to teach them or fix them, don’t get me wrong. I’m saying that it could be a happy side-effect from women doing a dress rehearsal to protect themselves from committing to a possible undercover shit show for life. So we help ourselves and other women by making these men audition and letting them know EXACTLY why they didn’t make the cut when we leave In a timely manner. Yeah moving out is a hassle, but so is divorce. Right? (And I think the idea/process of divorce probably makes it even harder to leave in a lot of ways.) At least if you vet them for a few years on their domestic and emotional labor, you get a more solid view into who they really are when they get comfortable with you.
When we vet them on this and leave cuz their domestic and emotional labor skills aren’t sufficient, at least low value men aren’t making it to marriage! Men have tricked women into thinking its only sex they want by projecting “oh the ball and chain!” It’s not tho, marriage benefits the fuck out of them and they want it, bad! I’m sure it’s a lot of their their goal! They want to fuck around and the majority of them expect that they will settle down and feel entitled to a wife.
Women don’t need marriage anymore! More and more women are also realizing they don’t want marriage or that marriage could be a happy optional thing for them if they choose it. Men need marriage more than women do, and they have historically acted like we’re nagging balls and chains, well we can drop the ball and go while watching them try to attach their pathetic little lvm marriage chains back onto the queens leaving them. Saying things like “I was just looking at rings!” Or whatever other bs they come up with. Men benefit SO much from having women in their lives.
To me, sex wasn’t “giving up the cow for free” marriage was. These men are out here getting entire teams of service people in one person for LIFE without paying a penny or recognizing the massive weight of that burden for centuries, devaluing it even.
I don’t think I’d give a man my whole show if he couldn’t pass my dress rehearsals, ya know? (Though, I’ll admit I’m a bit marriage averse because of it’s patriarchal history and the concept of the father “giving away” his daughter like property to her husband. I know it doesn’t have to be like that and it’s changed over time, I just have some personal issues because my dad told me he owned me like an object in an argument when I was a kid and so the thought of him giving me away to another man makes me wanna yack.)
Aside from the marriage stuff, I have a rule that I look at shared pets and domestic/emotional labor performance as training wheels for deciding whether or not I would have his children.
Anyways, my thinking is that If a man does not worry about the emotional/mental health of your animals, then I don’t think it’s a far leap to think a lot of childcare would slip his notice and fall onto your lap too. So I expect that he respects this rule and pitches in evenly in these areas before I even consider having children with him. (Also probs wise to require these for marriage too.)
I also expect that he is aware of the domestic and emotional disparity between women and men and is already on top of pulling his weight regularly in these areas, everyday, not just for show or feminism points.
Now some men are great partners and pitch in their fair share of domestic and emotional labors, but wouldn’t be able to cope or be a full partner if a baby/child was added to the mix. It just depends on what’s important to you and what you want I think. If you’re happy childfree and would prefer that and he’s a great partner but wouldn’t make a great dad, he could still be great for you. If you wanted kids, it would be hard, but you’d have to leave him even tho he’s a good partner. Some good partners don’t make good parents.
Do any of you have guidelines on what bars men have to pass to be qualified for you to consider having a baby with them? I think the most important things are the awareness of domestic/emotional labor and routine action on it.
I read a custody lawyer that was like “Dads lose custody because they can’t answer the same questions the mom can like who their child’s doctor is or what their teacher’s name is, and that’s unfair because you ask any dad what his child’s favorite color is and he’ll know, you ask him what his favorite games are and he’ll know...the moms don’t know these answers.”
My eyes rolled back in my head so hard I got a headache imagining the mother’s response to this laywer.
“Oh, I’m sorry that I’m so busy making sure my child has a doctor, appointments, and handling all the serious parental responsibilities so that he can be the fun dad and play games, and ask what his favorite color is and be the fun parent while entirely dropping the ball on everything that matters. Yes, please give more custody to this big-man child that will feed our kids candy for dinner because he doesn’t know what to make and wants to be the “fun parent”. You wanna know why I didn’t know my child’s favorite color? Because last week it was blue! This week it’s red! Maybe if “dad” actually pitched in on any real parenting, I could have time and energy to play with my kid too.”
I just think that maybe if we came up for some guidelines on the bar to be set for men on whether they are worthy for us to have kids with or not so we can save ourselves the nightmare of raising kids with absent, Disney dads that pretend they do the hard work when they just play with the kids when it’s convenient and society eats it up as if he’s actually pitching in.
What are some good women dating strategies we could come up for when deciding if a man is parent material or not? Not just “would be a sweet father playing with his kids” but “this man shovels out shitty diapers faster than a diaper genie, does dishes While baby wearing so you can shower and shit in leisure...” type of guideline expectations.
How can we sniff out the shitty parental partners that would dump the child rearing load on us even if they seem capable before children? I feel like a lot of women have gotten sucker punched with a different reality after having kids. The baby bait and switch I call it.
That the man said he’d pitch in and seemed so excited to have children, gave off all the right vibes/actions until the baby actually arrives and the dad just drops it all on the mom while she’s still recovering from the physical trauma of bringing his child into the world. A lot of women have gotten this bait and switch I think. What can we do to avoid this and to help other women avoid this?
Anyways, I’m curious what you Queens think of my thoughts on all this and if you see any holes in my logic or thinking on this, I’d love to hear your opinions and maybe even learn a thing or two from you all. I will say I’m not looking to date as I am happy in my relationship, but I just love the idea of helping contribute to women raising the bar for men and getting that overdue respect. Working as women together to change society and raise the bar! There’s power in that and I like being part of those kinds of movements. I also feel all kinds of women are wise and there’s so much to learn from each other. I don’t agree with all the points made in the handbook, but overall, I think it’s doing good work and I agree with a lot of it!
Thank you!
Sincerely, late blooming princess learning to Queen.
P.S. Thank you for existing to help protect women. ❤️ For helping women get the respect they deserve in relationships. We gotta be there for each other. We gotta raise that damn bar!! It’s so low. 😓
And disclaimer: I have gone through the handbook, but it’s extensive and I have ADD and dyslexia, so I might make some mistakes/misunderstandings. I might need to re-read it a few times to remember all the rules and guidelines. I apologize if I make any faux paus. I’ll do my best to remember all the handbook guidelines/rules/ideals. I struggle with focus and sometimes reading comprehension or memory. I hope you understand. 😓😅 Thank you.
One green flag for paternal involvement is a good paternal role model. On the other hand all men I know who had absent fathers became absent fathers too. They all have told their partners they 'never want to become like their own father'. But left in pregany or when the baby/child was in it's bonding phase <3.
In theory cohabitation sounds ok but irl it makes your position vulnerable. What if he is controlling? Abusive? Financially drains you by eating away your salary (you think I joke but this has happened to many women)? It really depends on if you have a good safety net if the situation turns sour. If you do not have the financial means to escape the cohabitat space never, I repeat, NEVER cohabit. There is a reason why shelter is high up on the list for survival books. You need a peaceful space for a healthy mind.
Vetting can be done without cohabiting. It can be when you visit his parents house and see if he treats his mom like a maid. Does he just sit there and wait for her to clean up after him? Or does he clean up himself? If he doesn't move a finger around his parents house, well it is telling. That's how he treats his closest and most loved people.
Anyway never put yourself at risk!
I’m on the “no” side of living together as well. I have only lived with one man, a closeted hobosexual who quickly popped out of said closet when he moved in. It was a nightmare to get him back out again. I did not live with my ex husband until we had set a wedding date. He was a man child but we were both young and I assumed he would improve. NEVER DO THIS! I eventually just refused to work outside the home unless he pitched in. I also hired a housecleaner. He didn’t like that but I stuck it out until lifetime alimony kicked in and then filed for divorce. Always get your bag, lol. When vetting a long term interest, I make time for sleepovers and closely observe how he cares for my home over a long weekend together. Does he leave drips on the toilet rim? Toothpaste platters on the mirror, does he leave dishes on the coffee table and walk away? Puddles on the floor after a shower? I never ever ask a man to help clean up but also take my time working over to the kitchen, he should naturally want to pitch in or, ideally, send me to a nice bath while he cleans up. Likewise, as his house I observe if he has the habits of cleaning as he goes or batch cleaning (I’m more of a batch cleaner and occasionally slob, only on my own turf) leak under his bed and couch- is it crammed with junk and dust bunnies (indicating that he did the old Calvin and Hobbes shove and sweep) are his closets and cabinets in order? Etc. I’ve only dated two men seriously post divorce but they both eliminated themselves after about a 18 months this way. Both times they proved me right during the breakup so don’t worry about eliminating an otherwise nice guy. You won’t miss out if you dump a slob. This does not at all prevent them from completely halting all effort upon marriage, of course. We can’t control what they do, we can only control how we react to it. If you go in to a marriage knowing that he is fully capable of caring for his own home then he stops suddenly, you know exactly why. This means it’s a bit easier to pull the plug when you need to. Divorce is harder than eviction and PO though, so vet accordingly in more than just this area. I asked for a “bride price” from my ex husband of 3000, which was a lot at the time. I invested it and had enough to pay for my divorce in ten years. Something to thing about, he should be glad to offer you security.
Statistically in the US, cohabitation before marriage leads to higher rates of divorce. Who knows why that is, but it’s relevant to know. At least in the US, while divorce is a difficult process, at least it entitles spouses to certain protections and rights. When you are cohabitating and partially or fully depending on someone while unmarried, that is just as difficult to escape imho. The exception I think is if somehow you became a famous celebrity and didn’t want your partner to touch your assets or businesses.
I've lived with 2 men in my life, not counting relatives. The first one financially abused me after grooming me from a young age. I wasted my 20s with this mooching loser before I grew a spine and dumped him. He was also 5-6 years older than me and never saw me as his equal. He was repeatedly jealous of my successes and never contributed a dollar towards rent. Boy, was I a sucker, falling for bullshit potential, always making excuses for his lameness. But that relationship did wind up teaching me what I refuse to put up with, what I really want, what's important, and my deal breakers. I'm currently living with another man and have for almost 4 years now. We met in highschool but didn't start dating until our early 30s. And then six months in he moved across the country to give us a proper shot. We've discussed marriage from the start and plan to get officially engaged in September. He has zero debt, contributes more than 50%, and makes more money than me. Living together has allowed us to save money hands over fists. He's not perfect but he's one of the best people I've met and he treats me with respect and trust. He's lazy for not opening his own bank account, but he shows a lot of trust by depositing his paychecks into my account. I have control of our finances and he's frugal rather than a spender. He has added value to my life, quite the opposite of the last man I lived with. Having known him for so long, over the years I have met 3 of his most serious ex girlfriends, all of whom are now married and live 1200+ miles away. I know why things didn't work out with each of them. While I can definitely see the benefits of following the FDS handbook guidelines, I discovered FDS about a year and a half into dating this one and I wasn't about to change things up to follow a set of rules blindly. Use your best judgment. Value yourself and your needs. Do not put up with misogyny or cheating. There's no one set play by play to a successful relationship with a man. Good luck, sister.