Music, Misogyny, and Courtney

Immediately I thought of Ariana Grande and Mac Miller. 😢

Asia Argento and Anthony Bourdain come to mind too. I'm not a fan of Asia, but suggesting she was the direct cause of his suicide? What a reach. Women with personality disorders are treated so much worse than men with personality disorders (who basically run the world and are lauded as geniuses, even when they're criminals).

I can't get behind adoration for Courtney bc of this fact alone. (And there certainly are other reasons to dislike her.) She was an addict while pregnant w Frances. Frances was taken away from her twice. As a teenager, Frances filed a restraining order against Courtney. The DV that brought about the restraining order is quite alarming.

I love(d) Hole. Saw them in concert. But Courtney Love is not the kind of person I look up to.

Omg yes, addicts are god awful. But her personality was always the way it was prior drug use...even as a girl. Likely she has Borderline or anti social personality disorder...from my experience, those individuals are likely created by living with a toxic parent (who isn't typically an addict, but more narcissistic). Her mother's awful treatment of her daughter is what shaped her destructive behavior. And Courtney isn't running around trying to get sympathy- which I applaud her for. I just have a soft spot for her because I view her issues surround relationships, substances, very relatable as someone with an absent biological mother who reminded me that I ruined her life lol. Addicts do not need sympathy but they do need consequences and honesty about their behavior. Courtney (unlike Kurt) had a very. neglectful childhood so I don't blame her for being an addict to cope. Having a Narcissistic mother is such a betrayal. It messes with your psyche big time.

Well I used the word "low key" adore to describe how I feel, because she IS so flawed but there is a raw honesty about her that is super rare to find these days honestly. She was best friends with Carrie Fisher, Drew Barrymore, and other super random celebs who found her to be super intellectual and deep- but flawed. And I can agree with your view but also admire her strengths.

Also I hope more women on here can be kind to those who grew up or were severely emotionally abused by our own mothers. Eventually mine just abandoned me, so I got adopted. But our brains are completely wired differently, then someone who grew up in a chaotic home, but weren't abandoned. There's a huge difference, and many studies on it.

I believe Courtney wanted to be a good mother, and I was happy to see her and Frances recently in a photo having a mother daughter day. Courtney never got the help she needed, and her daughter has every reason to be angry with her. But the addiction is separate from the person. Im not defending it, but it's completely different to have an addict mother vs a mother who just abandoned you out of convenience/spite and emotionally mistreated u while SOBER. That's even worse. I also appreciate her honesty about fucking up and getting her kid taken; Courtney isn't someone with zero self awareness. Her potential could have been taken to a higher level if she wasn't abused by two SOBER personality disordered parents.

She triggers them so hard. And she is awesome with her words. She will not hold back on some shithead scrote 😆

To be fair, it’s obvious in retrospect that Kurt wrote all the good songs that we remember from Hole. I didn’t believe it at the time (those were the rumors, I was in HS and college in the 90s), but in retrospect Hole’s music took a nose dive post 1994. And then after Kurt died, Courtney tried writing with Billy Corgan (Smashing Pumpkins) and I believe he helped her with the Live Through This album, but you can tell it has a vastly different sound than the previous stuff which was just so freaking good.

In the past years I took an interest in the figure of Kristen Pfaff and it turns out she was a great rock musician, especially with arrangements. Apparently she had a pivotal role in making Live through this so much better than the previous or following albums. I don't know if that fully explains it, but it does make some sense. The Hole's drummer was also great in that record.

She is definitely a pickme, or at least she was at the time. She has always prioritized men over women.

Yup. She was also Barb the Builder bc she tried to get Lanegan clean too.

She had many female friends that were never promoted in the media, so I have no idea where u got that from. lmao. She and Drew Barrymore were best friends, Carrie Fisher used to chill with her as well. And im blanking out on another celebrity that was famous...linda Perry? She pretty much picks fights with people regardless of gender, when she's triggered. She's a typical borderline.

And she also defended her own mother's abhorrent behavior and lashed out at her father in an interview. Saying that her mother's hatred was justified since her father was so horrible. I remember her reaching out to Amanda Bynes too, out of concern. So yeah, not really ummm prioritizing anyone, quite frankly lmao.

When did I say Frances wasn't important. Ok so you're the type to get emotional rather than actually post factual quotes from people who knew Courtney or her daughter. Her own daughter knows she isn't the same when she's high and im not going to explain for the 5th time how disorders like BPD aren't an excuse, but a symptom of abuse. CPTSD isn't a cluster B disorder and has much more mild symptoms. They self destruct but no where near as bad as a Borderline. They also have less self loathing and are able to acknowledge their abuse as abuse; Courtney hasn't done this. She has never called out her mother for abusing her, only her Dad. Deciding to stay in a band with a woman you hate is on the ADULT to leave. Strangely, her replacement who was a very pretty girl and very close with Courtney and defends her till this day (Au Der Mauf? I think her last name had a weird spelling...she was in smashing pumpkins too). So it's interesting that more of Hollywood hasn't come out to expose her- even when she exposed Harvey Weinstein.

Abuse apologist? Ok girl, whatever. I am not dealing with feminists who go out of their way to fight about a post that was designed for fans of Courtney. LOL. like why are u still even speaking right now? so weird and irrelevant.

And many people do view Courtney as a feminist- even if you don't. Google it. ;)

Accusing women with BPD as being violent and somehow not worthy of empathy (while I still acknowledge their AWFUL behavior) is pretty low. I have stated that people who remain in contact with disordered people have chosen to do so as a grown adult. Children have no choice in the matter-which is why I can have empathy for her experience and also view her lyrics as empowering. This post wasn't meant for someone like you. I am done explaining her toxic behavior as being completely awful, but I also realize why this happens with disordered women.

I don't mind discussing or disagreeing but name calling or false accusations of another women supporting abuse because you're triggered, is so low. Whatever is getting you super reactive, I hope it subsides. lol Because u literally didn't have to even comment on this post. It wasn't written for you. 😉

Ok nice...this was a post about Courtney's positive qualities (while I fully acknowledged her disordered behavior from the start) and now you are accusing me of conflating Courtney with all abuse victims. I am not. Your reading comprehension skills are really scaring me right now- babies that are neglected or abandoned (not your typical abuse that didn't involve the mother leaving her infant---is a whole different set of symptoms that relate to attachment. It would take hours to break this down for you, nor is it appropriate because it's off topic and comes across as someone needing to lash out tonight lol. Relax. I care about all abuse, and the fact that you were manipulative enough to covertly insinuate I only cared about her is so toxic LOL omg. im outright laughing because its super bizarre to say that empathizing with Courtney is unfair because their are less fortunate people who were abused? HUH? lmao

Courtney is the main topic of this post. So yes, that's who I am deciding to discuss and defend since I believe she was targeted by insecure women who can't handle direct confrontation and secretly love Kurt, as well as insecure men who hate seeing women being loud and giving zero fucks.

Yes! And abused by a therapist that her mother forced her to see...at some sort of weird hippy commune thing. But Kurt was allowed to write about a mentally disabled girl and essentially had sex with her- which is beyond weird to even write in a journal, because he wanted to get laid. Everyone laughed it off as a joke, but it struck me as super odd.

Wtf! He turned out to be just like all other "feminist" men

YES! THANK YOU. You literally said what I was trying to communicate (about the treatment of Courtney vs Kurt), but much more eloquently. ❤️

I am shocked by the number of women on here with little to no empathy for girls who grew up in extreme abuse (either in foster cares, like I did and Courtney as well when she was moved around to different places after her mother up and left), who self sooth their ptsd with substances. No actual accountability for the mother, (the father is also a lunatic but everyone knows that), and let's her off the hook because she appears more stable than Courtney.

Mothers like that are extremely dangerous because they can drive their own daughters to suicide, unsafe romantic partners, due to self loathing and mistrust of other women. And female friends are vital for survival throughout history

Are you implying that women who grew up in abusive households and never learned how to cope (thus making bad decisions) should even be assessed the same way as people without mental health issues (specifically cluster B disorders that stem from extreme abuse...not anxiety, depression or CPTSD). I am not evaluating whether or not she's a high value queen who is flawless...lol. I enjoy her music, raw honesty, and ability to openly admit her flaws. Sad that we are still at the point in some feminist spaces, that can't acknowledge the damage abuse from your own mother/gender can do to a girl. Lots of blame and shaming of a survivor of child abandonment, neglect as an infant etc.

Pretty twisted to blame a lower functioning woman with a horrific documented childhood as not being high value enough for this website. Judgement of adult female survivors, of maternal abuse, makes me nauseated. I experienced everything Courtney did and worse, eventually in foster care. I wouldn't say im high value at the moment...but weaponizing that term against those with severe maternal abuse and abandonment, is really shocking honestly lol

The feminists within that Alt-rock/riott girrrrlll scene based their entire identity as feminists because they WEREN'T mothers or a housewife. Many lib fems scoffed at women who wanted that lifestyle- and actively fought against women being stuck in the kitchen. Courtney, like many of you on here, represented a different type of feminism that didn't give off that arrogant "im the perfect feminist, and casual sex is awesome" type of vibe. I don't think Courtney EVER promoted that. And I don't think FDS does either? Maybe im wrong lol if I am I will take that back. regardless, she is not a lib-fem and her ability to trigger men is iconic.

Also, FDS is the only group of women I've come across on the internet who exhibits that type of power too. When dealing with scrotes u all become so ruthless but in a way that's logical and non-reactive. And whenever I watch Courtney talk shit about some scrote, it is so funny its as if the men are so irrelevant to her. And they STILL stay mad.

But umm idk just thought the queens would find her pretty dope; not trying to start anything lmao. At least some get it.

but my bad I won't call her a rad fem...is alt-fem a word? 🙃

Doll-fem? I feel like Courtney would prefer that one. 😎

Girl the fact that Courtney's mom was a terrible pickme abuser doesn't let Courtney off the hook for being the same and hurting other people. There's a reason why it's called "the cycle of abuse". A cycle of abuse doesn't end because of the empathy of complete strangers. It ends because someone in the cycle makes a choice to end it, by working hard on themselves against the odds. That's actual high value, role model behavior.

I never once said Courtney's behavior was justified or acceptable- but it IS the consequence of being neglected since infancy. Mothers who appear disconnected, unattached or as her own mother put it "just watched her cry, then stop, then cry again" damages the infant's brain. The scans of brains of children with neglectful mothers that were not physical but involved abandonment or refusing to hold the baby..are shocking. The scans look similar to those who were in war with PTSD. I am sorry, but having your entire brain become negatively impacted (which was out of her control) makes me empathize with her. I do NOT empathize with the drug use and outlandish behavior, but I do understand it. There's a huge difference. if u can find where I said Courtney is off the hook for her behavior, then I will completely take that back. :)

I refuse to make a value judgement about traumatized women that have a history of severe abuse but yet come out of it and are able to be completely strasightforward about their toxic behavior and own it; the self loathing within that woman is too deep to be able to manage motherhood- I recognize that.

Also high value women (that identify as such) who feel like because they didn't do drugs or have their kid removed gives them the right to judge, are some of the biggest covert narcissistic women on the planet. They will never be vulnerable about their negative traits ever- no matter how many degrees they get (ummm like Courtney's mom). And while her mother has never said anything kind publicly about her own daughter or vice versa. Frances says this

"Frances and her mother have famously had a rocky relationship, but they seem to be rebuilding their bond in recent years. "When my mom is on a right and healthy path, she is one of the most fulfilling, beautiful, intelligent and kind people I ever met," she said in a 2019 appearance on the RuPaul: What's the Tee? podcast."