Is it wrong for women to make the first move in dating?

With a guy, never make the first move. I can’t speak for woman because obviously one of you has to make the first move, but with a man DONT DO IT. the ones you’ve asked out have turned you down because they’re not interested in you. If a guy did say yes, he’s only agreeing because he’s vaguely interested and knows it will probably lead to sex as he knows YOU find him attractive but he doesn’t necessarily find you attractive. There’s just the option of sex. Basically when a woman asks a man out it’s because he knows you’ll be easy and he will assume you have low expectations. Most men do love the chase, let’s be real.

Once he meets a woman he’s actually interested in he will dump you so fast to pursue someone else because you’re just a placeholder to him.

I don't make the first move. Even if a guy is being obvious about being interested I want one who isn't a coward, or an abusive bastard (every man I've ever met that says he wants women to make the first move has been SUPER-MANIPULATIVE). I have in the past caught a guy watching me and smiled at him, which resulted in him 'shooting his shot', but that is the absolute limit. I don't even do that now.

I don't know about everyone else, but for me the guy should make the first move. They are "hunters" after all. My friends husband told me guys today are cowards. Lol that's not my problem.

It's not inherently "wrong" but with how men are, you definitely do not want to do it. If men were not as opportunistic/predatory/thirsty/selfish and instead interacted with women in good faith, we would have much different advice here at FDS. But men are by and large lazy users, and if a woman throws herself into his lap he'll be more than happy to use her for sex, domestic and emotional labor and toss her back without a second thought when he's done, without caring about her or even being attracted to her at all.

Therefore, if you are a woman who dates men--the man must make the majority of effort. Always. He proposes, you accept or decline. He pays. He plans. He initiates. He texts you. He calls you. He is clear about his feelings, he doesn't make you feel unsure, uncomfortable, or put you in a situationship.

Rules may change slightly for long-term, well-established relationships/marriages, but this is the only way to sift through the horde of LVM trying to use or "plate" women. If it seems like he's not putting in much effort, stringing you along, or leading you to chase him...drop him and move on. He ain't worth it, sis.

This will naturally lead you to reject a LOT of men because so many of them are used to this lackluster style of courtship (if you can even call it that), but just ask yourself--is it more worth it to be single and at peace, leaving the door open for a HVM, or constantly stressed and insecure with a L/NVM and cutting off any opportunity you might have with a much better match?

Isn't this question answered in the handbook?

For heterosexual dating, there is nothing "wrong" Per se about the act alone or the woman's intentions. The problem is the consequences, which is why we should never ask men out.

Asking a man out sets you up for multiple consequences:

1) You end up "chasing" him, so you never know if he has that internal fire of wanting to chase and keep you long-term. For example, you will never know if he is with you out of convenience, using you as a placeholder girlfriend until he finds his "dreamgirl," or just with you because he thinks he can't do any better. It's terrible so many men act/think this way contrary to all the "feminist" and m*ninists who chide women for wanting men to take charge. Even men who claim they want women to take charge may ultimately resent her, like how LVM eventually can resent dating a HVW because she outshines him and he feels inadequate. Good men (for you) want to chase.

2) you will be set up in the position to be "the man" in the relationship, meaning all of the planning, picking date ideas/venues, paying for dates or at least 50-50; etc. Why should he bother putting in any effort when you set this precedent? (Again it sucks, but society lied to you)

3) madonna-whore complex. Unfortunately some men are so misogynistic they think women who make the "first move" are "easy." Being seen as "easy" can range from smiling at a man and being friendly (ridiculous) to asking a man out. Even women who sign up for OLD can be seen as "easy" or "damaged goods." I will be friendly and chat with anyone, but I refuse to go on OLD or ask anyone out/ask flirty questions for that reason. It' not okay and a set of double standards, but that' the way it is. HVM will not think this way but they are not desperate and swiping on apps.

4) in the back of your mind, you might think about "if he wanted to, he would." And how things may have played out differently if you passed over asking this guy out, and waited for a man to properly chase and show appropriate interest. It feels really nice to be wanted and courted, and you are cheating yourself out of this if you ask him out first.

5) Sex inequalities. Women earn less than men on the dollar in many countries, we have the "pink tax" (our hygiene/grooming products are more expensive), and we have more social expectations to spend money, time, and effort on our appearance. From birth, many of us have described being held to a higher standard (compared to men) in terms of appearance, tidiness/organization, academics, politeness, and even character. It's not right and actually downright hateful to men to tell them "you are inept, so we expect you to be a less moral/hardworking/clean person." By refusing to ask someone out, you are leveling the playing field. A quality man will recognize all the ways you are special and want to be generous with you in terms of time and thoughtfulness. He doesn't have to be rich, but he won't be stingy emotionally, financially, physically, etc. You are the prize.

6) Related to #5: Feel good learning to receive, because you are worth it. Women are socialized to find worth in being as kind/giving/understanding as much as possible. Many of us crave attention and kindness but are too embarrassed or self conscious to receive it. It's ok! I noticed even today I was thinking about how I was leaving my handbag alone at the shoppes (to grab an item) and realized how stupid that was. I thought about it critically and realized it was due to primary school socialization/teaching. I feel like a "b*tch" if I am guarded about my items and not willing to "share" because of all the times adults forced me to share in school. So now I unconsciously let myself be vulnerable to purse snatchers 🤦‍♀️by leaving vulnerable situations, speaking with your feet (walking away) and taking reasonable precautions to protect yourself, you are being conscious of your worth. Hope that helps! 🙏

Personally I have a very transparent body language (unfortunately)

I find it very hard to believe that a man I am strongly attracted to will not notice it even if I dont consciously try to show it

I dont think any man is so clueless to not notice when a woman is strongly attracted to them. I certainly do notice when men are attracted to me

So my baseline assumption is if he wanted he would

Don't ask them out, it always ends badly.

I have several views on this.

1. Approaching a man versus flat out asking him out. I think that merely approaching a man is actually good.

2. However! Once the first approach/ice-breaker has been initiated, the ball is in his court. If you are not able to gauge any indication of him being interested, you move on.

Why I say this? When I met my current husband, I talked to him first. BUT he seemed eager to know me more, so he gave me his phone number. Once I sent him the first text message… HE did the rest: initiate all conversations, ask me on dates, and established his commitment not long after that.

HE proposed marriage TO ME the following year: I wasn’t even “hinting at anything” or the like.

There is a difference between signalling availability and asking someone out.

“If he wanted to, he would” is the best advice. If you’ve chatted, smiled etc with a guy you’re interested in and he doesn’t ask you out, move on.

That’s the handkerchief dropping: the next move is on him. You’ve done your bit, now it’s his turn.

Never make the first move. Just dont. If he doesnt ask you out, he is not that into you.

I think it’s ok to say hi or start a conversation. Sometimes a guy has to know you exist or that you have similar interests if he is of quality and doesn’t just approach based off looks. But once he does never ever ever ever ask him out. I learned this the hard way. They just don’t operate in good faith. Even a shy guy will hover around until he finally asks you out.

Yes.

I have different views on this. Everyone's an individual with his own character and my type is also the shy type. For dates? Hmm I'd expect the man to invite me but I can let him know that I'm interested in him for marriage ONLY.

No, it's not wrong. Just don't chase and if he doesn't take the lead after you show interest, move on immediately.