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Hi Queens,
I have a question that has been a core issue of mine when implementing FDS into my life. This question may be better explained through my own personal experience recently, which I've included below.
But TL;DR- I want to know how men justify their horrid actions to women they've dated and gotten to know intimately. I know that we say we shouldn't try to make sense of their choices, but I moreso want to make sense of how they justify it to themselves. Becsuse I have been continuously flabbergasted at the capacity of men to treat women like trash after knowing them in very intimate ways. My lack of understanding of men in this way seems to be my core issue, and it blindsides me every time. I figure if I can get a better grasp on this, then I can better protect myself. Know thy enemy, as they say.
My cautionary tale:
Last year I dated a man for 7 months, and I was a long-time FDS follower so I already had a strong internal idea of the warning signs of a LVM. This man checked all the HVM boxes for the majority of our time together. I tried very hard to not be won over by good behavior, because I know that vetting never ends and that LVM can hide their true selves in the early stages of a relationship, but I admittedly was very fond of him and saw him in a positive light. As time wore on, there were a few small behaviors that popped up that were potential yellow flags, but all of these yellow flags were one-off issues that he corrected. I was still consistently feeling very good about how he treated me and wanted to see where things went.
Around the 6-7 month mark of us dating, he had some big negative life events happen that affected him very much. I noticed that he was treating me with less care and consideration at this same time, and that is when we decided to break up. He told me that he “still adored me and wanted to stay with me if he could, but that he wasn’t in a place to date anyone due to what was happening in his life”. I didn’t fully believe his spiel(if he wanted to he would ya know), but I wasn’t gonna argue that point cause the end result was the same, plus the yellow flags I saw never left my mind.
At the time of the breakup, it was the first relationship I could look back on and say that I was treated with respect for the entire duration (all my prior relationships ended in horrid abusive cycles, which is why I got into FDS). I was so deeply relieved to have this experience under my belt, and I began to trust myself a little more with how to deal with men. I broke a horrid life-long pattern of letting myself be manipulated and abused by LV men. While I knew I still had things to work on, I thought it was a huge step in a positive direction.
Then, I found out 2 weeks later from a mutual ‘friend’ that he had been sleeping with random 20 year olds off of Tinder without telling me while we were together, and that he had begun seeing another woman in the last month of us dating(which is the true reason why he couldn’t invest as much time in me anymore).
The night I found out about his behavior, my entire perception of the prior 7 months completely shattered. I felt such a deep sense of violation that I threw up and sobbed. My growing sense of trust in myself totally combusted. I had seen very small hints that he perhaps wasn’t top-tier HV, but I never in a million years would have thought he was that truly scummy. We were (supposedly) very clearly exclusive(the 7 months I count as us being together started when we verbally agreed on exclusivity), and because of that we hadn’t been using condoms(I’ve learned my lesson on that front, so please don't remind me how dumb I was. I’ve paid the price for it.)
I texted him to confront him to see what he would say if I asked him directly, and he attempted to gaslight the shit out of me. He said things like I was “entitled to my own reality” , but I cut through that bullshit so fast and he finally admitted to parts of the story(but made it clear he didn't think he did anything wrong). It makes me sick to think about how much he did that he didn’t admit to.
After this encounter his disgusting, nightmarish side came out in a way that totally floored me. He clearly viewed me as a cumrag that he used up. It was terrifying to see that he had 0 respect for me, and thought I was being ridiculous for feeling violated, even though we had shared so much emotional and physical intimacy in our 7 months together.
It’s been 6 months since I found out the truth. I definitely view him as the horrific abusive predatory manchild he is. However, sometimes I get a flash of positive memory with him, and I temporarily get a wild amount of dissonance. I know in the future to step away more quickly, but even in this relationship I was hella guarded and wary and truly didn't see any of the yellow flags as signs of his true nature. They just seemed like human mistakes that anyone could do. It's baffling to me.
I know we are not supposed to try to understand LVM’s behaviors, but it hurts my brain to try to reconcile with the fact that a man I truly tried to vet was capable of doing such awful things to me. I know he is just a broken man with deep insecurities and all that jazz, but dear god it still makes me short circuit to think about. I know he truly thinks he is a good person. He sees himself as the HVM he portrayed to me as the beginning.
I feel the need to try to make sense of how he could do that stuff because I hope it will help me see the signs in the future. Or maybe I can understand how to better protect myself if I can understand how a human brain is capable of such disgusting rationalizations.
So these are my questions: How do you reconcile the truth about a man being LV after you once thought he was a good person? And how do some men truly believe that the women they once claimed to adore are worthy of such horrid treatment ? How is it possible that a man can do such disgusting shit and not factor that into their sense of self?
I want to know the enemy LVM so I can do my best to protect myself going forward.
"Why does he do that" thoroughly explains what abusers think and why they feel justified in their actions.
In cases like these, I feel it's near impossible to see it coming. We would have to be literally paranoid of every male, far more than we already are, and fearful of every males actions,.and I don't think that's a healthy mental space to be in. At the end of the day, we do need to have "some" level of trust in our potential partner, while still diligently vetting, as you were doing. But this is the trick of seeking a HVM, they can do all the right things and still fuck you over. I dated a man from the Dominican Republic for 18 months. On the surface, he was very HV. He did everything "right".He had a masters degree in chemistry, made 6 figures in the chemistry field. He loved to cook for me. He loved to spoil me. He loved to make sure I got off during sex. He loved giving me massages. It brought HIM pleasure to pleasure me! And I thought I found the holy grail of men. Weeeelll, fast forward 18months and I was at his house, his dumb ass got too comfortable and left his email open. I chose to look through it, and found countless emails from Craigslist personals (when it was still around) looking for males to suck his dick. YUP. He was on the down low with men!!! I was devastated. Shocked. Horrified. I confront him. He actually admitted it, but then said, "I'm not gay though cause I'm a top. Only bottoms are gay." ROFL!! This is how these males justify gay shit. This male through me for a loop cause he did everything right!!! He never abused me, never gaslight me, always cared about my pleasure first and here he is looking for dudes to suck his dick even though I fucked him constantly, on a near daily basis.
So outside of "Why does he do that" which is a must read for any woman, I have another book to recommend- more from the radfem category. It's called "Refusing to be a man" by John Stoltenberg (he's Andrea Dworkin's husband).
It's a collection of essays about everything wrong with the concept of "maleness" as we know it, its unnaturalness, its constant need of external validation to survive (that's why men need women, because if there are no women around, then they are not men - because "maleness" as an identity must constantly be reinforced and confirmed) and its depence on the idea that being male is "superior" and therefore requires something "inferior" to dominate.
I haven't read the whole book yet but I'm in the process of reading it and it has made me understand SOOO many male behaviors I used to be puzzled about. And most of all, that weird toxic attachment to the idea of "maleness" they fight for it as if it's the only thing they have, cause if they're not men, then it means they're one of the "other" things they think they have a birthright to despise and mistreat, and it also means they're at the mercy of other men, the ones who actually live up tof the false myth of maleness in their minds.
This is just so gross. I'm sorry you went through that. Pure entitlement on his, and on many men's, part. I haven't had an identical experience (that I'm aware of), but I'd say simply fine tuning your 'bullshit radar' can be really helpful. It's helped me avoid a LOT of carnage. Pay attention to anything that doesn't sound quite right, doesn't feel fully congruent. Just start paying attention to that feeling. Within YOU. It is different to a feeling of general anxiety/fear of intimacy/projected old fear/wounds. Once you get better and better at this, you will know when someone is trying to pull one over you. You won't always know exactly what the lie is, but you will know there is one there. You may not immediately know if it's simply them guarding their privacy (may be totally valid) or lying to you and disrespecting you, but you'll have some INFORMATION. Observe and move forward in no rush. No need to be confrontational. Just gathering data. It may look obvious like discomfort in them, it may even be that someone is loving (or love bombing) on you but something doesn't feel right. Listen to that feeling. And then observe. Honour that you've clocked it/something. This might sound like hypervigilance, but I truly believe there is a difference between a dysfunctional hypervigilance you can't turn off, and a highly tuned awareness and intuition. I encourage you to Cultivate the latter. I'm getting better and better in hearing and listening to this, and observing men's behaviour. It's actually quite interesting now that I have FDS and some more life experience, I can see they are really not all that original! I'm betting there may have been some signs, but you weren't able to see/feel/sense them. On some level, we, women, always know. I'm not saying this to blame you in ANY way. He's utterly gross. Hearing and listening to and acting upon our intuition is a learned and practiced skill, which is continually devalued and gaslit out of us in a ...erm 'modern' world. It's one of our 'superpowers' as women. I'm truly truly sorry you went through this. What a disgusting person.
How is it possibile?
They don't see us as fully human. We are means to an end, and the end is usually some sort of gratification/relief. When our job is fullfilled we are useless.
How they justify themselves?
It's a whole science they have perfected, but the most popular in my opinion is "I'm going through something/I have trauma/I have issues". When that doesn't work, somehow they make it your fault.
How do we fall for this?
I have given this a lot of thought, and I think that when we meet someone we should pay more attention to the difference between what they want to project (for whatever reason) and what they actually are. It all comes down to people lying to themselves (both the liar and the victim). I am becoming pretty good at reading between the lines, a lot of it is non verbal cues, but I admit it's an exhausting way to live if it's not your wiring, and being lied to can happen to everyone.
I'm sorry this happened to you. I agree with the commenter who said that at some point we need to trust. I think you did the right thing in taking a calculated risk. We cannot live 100% of the time on high alert.
Also, when you think about those good moments with him, think that, through him, you found something that's important for you that you want to keep in your life, a need that you can still fullfill after that person is gone. In my experience, relationships with narcissists hold a mirror to what you lack and desire but cannot admit to yourself. So you can use those moments as a compass.
One last thing. When long cons happen, it's understandable to feel victimized, because you're a victim and it wasn't your fault. But in my experience it's best to shift the focus on yourself (how did you feel? how were you vulnerable? did you lie to yourself?) because it gives some power back to you. At least you'll have learned something about yourself, which is very valuable as you become more aware of your susceptibility to future traps. It's way better than just become cynical and hopeless or obsessing over "figuring men out". Repeated betrayals will do that to you, but they shouldn't. It's still a learning experience, despite the pain.
Men don't see women as fully established, thinking feeling, intelligent human beings. I know this is hard for many women to fathom because Western society has made more progress in terms of women's rights.
Historically men have treated women as slaves. They still view women this way, as property to use for sex, childbearing, labour and to discard and replace as they please. However, legally they cannot make us their slaves and property, so they do it through brainwashing us into believing that marriage is the be all and end all. It's important to understand that most men do not like women and are therefore not capable of taking that step further to love women. This is how they justify it. They think they are entitled to treat us however they want. They get off on hurting women emotionally and physically. It's like a rite of passage into manhood to break many women's hearts and deceive them by lying, mistreating, and using them for sex. Men are multi-faced, manipulative liars and shapeshifters. For some men the mask of pretense falls off earlier, while others who are more skilled at deceit can keep the mask on for years. They know as soon as you like them back it's game over for you because you will stay through all their bullShit. This is why you need to be ready to leave at the drop off of a hat no matter how much you like or love a man. Women are conditioned to have empathy, be kind, caring loving, and nurturing. Men are socialised to see empathy and a weakness and kill their sense of empathy. The devastating result of this is that women project their own empathy onto men, not realizing that men do not have empathy for women. Men are raised to see women as "less than". Infact, the worst insult you can deliver to a man is to compare them to a woman like saying you're a "pussy" or "you run like a girl."
From a young age men are taught that women are subhuman/inadequate/lesser beings and the worst possible thing to be is a woman. They are raised on porn that teaches them to degrade women. Meanwhile women are brainwashed by movies, books and media to want romance. We end up with a society of women loving and romantacizing men who hate them.
In short, control, power and because they do not see women as humans like they see themselves and other men like humans. The system of patriarchy and using women benefits them greatly. For many men it’s complete projection onto others of their own shitty behavior and attitudes that they want to avoid because they are cowards. And lastly because of the patriarchy, gender roles and a lack of good male role models and significant social change, the cycle continues.
I don’t mean to over-simply this but THEY WILL TELL YOU, that YOU DESERVE BETTER THAN THEM, and that you’re amazing blah blah blah. I mean it’s obviously true that you do and are, but when a man is repenting for his abuse, these bullshit lines are pretty standard. 🤮
I think there was an FDS episode that talked about men being goal oriented. For whatever reason that’s coming to my mind. In my opinion, once the LVM stops getting what he wants he just moves onto the next thing without thinking. I think it might just be innate wiring?? I’ve heard other sources mention that when men make it up in their minds that they are done with a woman/have had enough of her then they don’t ever look back. It’s a generalization of course but I tend to believe it just because of personal experiences that I’ve had like yours where things are going well until they are not. I’ve realized the guy just decided to dip and that’s all. Nothing personal. Just not the right guy for me. It definitely hurts don’t get me wrong.. I still think about some LVM who I thought were HVM but who later just so quickly discarded me.. and then I come onto FDS to regain my sense of worth.
I think the best way to protect yourself is to keep loving yourself more and more. :)
It's pure selfishness, entitlement. Men lack a moral compass. If they can get away with it they will. Men are only as faithful as their options.
In my experience, they use drastic gestures and acts you didn't ask for early on then use that to justify their abuse later on. When I called out the abusive toxic behaviours my ex was doing, he would guilt trip by saying "I've done X and Y for you, and its not appreciated, nothing i do is good enough!" and denied the abuse. This is the purpose of love bombing, so always be really cautious of a man who creates this fairytale like romance at the beginning, showering you with speeches, gifts and affection, it is always how abusive relationships start. LVMs know what they're doing is wrong, but they do not care, all they do is use methods to cover their tracks - they gaslight, deny, call you psycho etc. Then once they cannot deny it, they will minimise their abuse, making you think you are overreacting and its not actually a big deal.
When I broke up with my ex, he literally told me to go to therapy because there was something wrong with me for not forgiving his countless occasions of abuse. According to him I should appreciate all the great things he's done for me, therefore I should move on from the bad things he did as if he wasn't going to repeat them anyway.
LVMs are well aware they're manipulative, they just don't care. They are so entitled and narcissistic that they genuinely believe they had a right to behave like that because of whatever excuse. For example, they were going through a hard time, it was the alcohol/substance abuse or you were being a pain in the arse for telling you something that is bothering you. Because their feelings are the greatest importance, they're the spotlight and you are just the audience giving them whatever they want from you.
They do not care about women's feelings or think theyre valid, they see it as nagging or overdramatic, they do not respect us or have any empathy, only an disgustingly inflated ego and sense of self importance.
LVM make excuses, his poor childhood, his poor upbringing, or victim blame but HVW know that men know exactly what they are doing, no matter how many mommy issues he has, no matter what he went through If he didn't want to hurt you it wouldn't have happened.
There is no buts, there is no what ifs. If he didn't mean
to it wouldn't have happened, It happened because he wanted it.
If he's going to meet up with you but decided to sleep in because he had a night shift for example and he arrives late, then he arrived late because he wanted to. He could have get over it and be on time or not agree to meet up with you after a night shift.
Or meets up with you later because a person he hasn't seen in a while contacted him out of the blue, and If he's being fussy because you don't want to see him anymore then it shows he's a LVM.
A HVM would have told that he has plans with his woman and that they can meet up afterwards, contacting a person last minute is a very inconsiderate thing to do anyway and If he chooses friends over you then It should be over. Even if he suggests that his friend joins you on your day out is LVM behavior. HVM behavior would tell the friend he's occupied and they either meet up later or they don't.
Men don't see women as fully human. That knowledge changed my life. Seconding the advice to read "Why does he do that."