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I haven't dated in a really really long time and before two days ago the only men I had in my phone contacts were family and coworkers. Basically I haven't even entertained the thought of talking to or texting any men because my life is so peaceful staying away from them.
A man asked me out on a date, recently and I was reluctant because I'm in a happy place by myself. He was very gentlemanly and polite, so I gave him my VoIP (Text Now) number which I have memorized. He showed a lot of enthusiasm, planned a date close to where I live and picked a really impressive high end restaurant. He had to drive an hour to meet me here. We had a brief conversation and he picked a place based on something that I mentioned that I liked. The vibe at the restaurant was amazing and the food and drinks were five star.
He pulled my chair out for me and made sure I was comfortable. When I got there he was happy to see me and thanked me for coming. He was very polite and kind to the waitstaff as well. I'm a bit of a klutz and spilled my drink. He cleaned it up for me and swapped his drink with mine so that i didn't have to hold a sticky glass. He encouraged me to order whatever I wanted to eat and drink. Overall just gentlemanly and polite. The conversation flowed really well. He was a good listener and seemed genuinely interested in me and curious about me. When I asked about his dating experience and he said it was good and he's been fortunate to have dated wonderful women.
However, during our conversation I asked a general question that seemed to upset him. I asked why he moved from a lovely European country to the US. His face just visibly fell. The whole mood just changed. I didn't know what to make of the situation. The conversation had been going really well, so I felt very confused. His face was so upset and he didn't say anything for 20 seconds (I fidgeted in my seat and wondered if he misheard my question as something really offensive) then very solemnly told me he moved here for his mother's medical treatment. She was diagnosed with cancer. His whole demeanor had changed like he was just so visibly upset. He got a bit teary and mentioned she has passed away a couple of years ago and talked about the trauma of losing a parent and harships of her medical treatment. I apologised because I didn't know such a general question would trigger him to become so upset. I empathised and apologised 2-3 times saying I didn't know it was a sensitive question. After my 3rd apology he said "It's ok, you didn't know." He showed me photos of his mother and talked about what a strong impressive woman she was. He expressed admiration for the fact that she would even laugh on the phone with his siblings on her hospital bed during her last few days and didn't want them to worry as they were in different countries.
Despite profusely expressing my empathy/condolences, in the back of my mind,wondered if this was a manipulation tactic on his part. After about 15+ mins of talking about his mother, and showing me all the photos of the places he took her to make her life as happy as possible while she was battling with cancer, he reverted back to other topics and the conversation was good again. I'm not trying to sound cold I can imagine it's really hard to take a loved one for medical treatments several times per week till you eventually lose them. I also have trauma from losing loved ones. But if people ask me questions that are sensitive, I have the ability to politely tell them it's a sensitive topic and I don't want to talk about it or I change the topic. Post FDS me is generally emotionally detached from men. I can I have the right responses to the right situations. But I'm still emotionally detached and I apologised and empathised a few times out of discomfort and feeling awkward. I was trying to analyse if he was trying to be emotionally manipulative.
After dinner I had plans to meet some acquaintances. I purposely made plans for a couple of hours after my date because I don't want to spend hours getting ready for nothing if I don't like my date or if they don't show up. He asked me if I wanted dessert or anything else before going. I politely declined. He walked me to my car and told me to text him when I got home safely. He texted me saying he had a wonderful date and wanted to take me on another date and explore some fine dining and other places. I didn't respond.
I saw the lack of emotional control over a simple question as a huge red flag. I feel like most healthy people don't express their trauma on a first date and it even takes people a few sessions to talk about trauma with a therapist. I've never seen women react this way to a sensitive question. Male depravity is on a spectrum and we've all dealt with different kinds of depravity from different men. I would appreciate your input and thoughts ladies? It's been such a long time since I've gone on a date.
Displaying human emotion is fine, what unnerved me was how long he spent on the subject. Over 15 min showing you pics of his mommy on the first date is strange in any context. I understand getting choked up momentarily if it’s fresh, but this feels like mama’s boy territory. This is the guy who will triangulate you with his dead mother and you’ll never win because she’s canonized in death
As much as we all advise each other to stay on guard, and justifiably so, one should be careful not to deaden our natural ability to connect with people on a human level. From all you’ve said this is a man who’s had his share of life’s woes, and did not burden you with them. He would have to be an oscar worthy actor to have preempted and prepared to act upon hearing that question. My mother died when I was 13 and I still get emotional talking about her and once (embarrassingly) cried to a stranger. So I don’t think he intended to manipulate you with that singular action, even if men are known to be manipulative. So vet as usual, but by your own rendition of events, he seems quite lovely.
I'm not saying that it might have been a lie- it was probably the truth since you asked the question unprompted. However, talking for 15+ minutes about something so personal on the first date seems like a red flag. He probably jumped at the opportunity to get your empathy. Second of all, it is also a red flag when he took so much time to accept your apology after getting triggered. You had to say sorry 2-3 times? Nope, that sounds manipulative. Reasonable adults would immediately know that it is not your fault and jump to reassure you- especially a woman he is trying to impress. He sounds like someone who is happy/comfortable to put blame on others for his moods/behavior. Plus, anybody who can make the "whole mood change" and leaving you in the dark about it (even for a little while) screams manipulation. The way I see it- You became confused and he had the power to drive away that confusion. That's not a good dynamic, especially on the first date.
Even if everything was true and humanly warranted, this is a slice of what your future might be with him. It's not about being cold to his situation- it's about how he handled it and whether you are willing to accept that
I just have to say that your gut and body is telling you something is off so believe it. I personally don’t want to hear any sobbing story on the first date. You don’t even know the guy. I don’t think a HVM would want your empathy or want to ruin your night so early on like this with his emotional trauma. I would say be cautious as this is a red flag in my opinion.
Thank you both! I very much appreciate your perspectives. I will take it into account and send him a response today. I'll continue to vet carefully. I Iean more towards the jaded and cynical side when it comes to men because I've been manipulated and deceived by every man I've dated/known. I don't know what is feels like to be liked/loved or cared for by any man including family. Men have also used loss to manipulate women into intimacy or as a way to boundary push. I have lots of love and human connection with the women in my life. So I have an easier time feeling genuinely empathy for women. But my experiences with men have only been trauma, betrayal, physical violence, sexual assault by a boss, threats, blackmail, and a couple of near death experiences at the hands of a diagnosed narc (I didn't know he was a narc at the time). In terms of dating , men were incredibly nice and kind when I first met them but turned cold and/or awful over time, it was all a performance that led me believe nobody is nicer that a guy who wants to £uck you for the first time. It was also a soul crushing experience to find out male friends were not my friends but biding their time to get into my pants while using me for free therapy. My ex narc always used emotions as a way to guilt me to get back together with him everytime he did something horrific to me. He'd beg on his knees snot faced and crying about how sorry he was. Men have always confused me because they were either never able to express any emotions or when they did, it was always manipulative and to my detriment. So that's a background on why I'm very skeptical. In my Pickmeisha days I tried to love men into loving me back. I'd bring them their favourite lunches to work, buy them cute little gifts to surprise them, allowed myself to be a free maid, doing laundry and cleaning for them. In return I received abuse and they withdrew emotionally completely after the honeymoon stage of the relationship.
Maybe I’m a heartless bitch, but I’m extremely sceptical when men bring up the cancer parent story bc it’s such an overdone scam to manipulate women. Iliza Schlesinger wrote a whole movie about her sociopathic ex who lied about his mother having cancer. Strongly recommend it, it’s called “Good On Paper”. I agree with @sol , there can definitely be manipulation in truth. Your gut is screaming at you for some reason, something is not sitting right. Go through the questions that sol asked in your head, see what might've set off your internal alarms.
I wouldn't normally recommend a second date if alarms go off usually, but this instance seems unique. If he asks, maybe another date to gauge for further insight into his character will be helpful. If it does turn out that this is his way to get women to trauma bond with him and it's his "in" to manipulate them, then oh well, you saw through it. Enjoy the meal and date in the moment (if it's still safe to do so) and then move on with your life.
This can be manipulation even if it's the truth & genuine. PERSONALLY, I think your reaction is good and spot-on because it means you're not falling for what could potentially be a man who might not have bad intentions, but is still using trauma to create intimacy or a bond and make you trust him more too quickly.
Really think about the other things or potential orange flags surrounding that conversation. Was he only asking you questions rather than organic back and forth? Were they superficial or worse, too deep/personal for a first date? When you asked him something, were his answers shallow or vague? Were any of the things he said lovebomb-y or overly invested for it only being the first date? Did any of the other things he said or did make you pause?
The 15-minute conversation about his mother might have been true, but it could have also simultaneously been a misdirection from something else he didn't want to talk about.
Also that 20 second pause could just as easily be him trying to come up with a lie.
I've been reading more about personality disorders/abuse/trauma etc lately because of my own issues so I might just be hypervigilant - and obviously not every guy is a narcissist or whatever, I know!! - but I bring this up just as an opposing opinion to the other comments.
If you're going to continue to see this guy, I think you should familiarize yourself with how someone with NPD or just some traits operates just because it's useful information to protect yourself from potential manipulators.
The guy I was dating was so similar to the guy in your post at first. I only realized later that he used trauma to fast-track an emotional bond with me, that the elaborate dates were to distract me from the shallow conversations, that aside from his initial trauma only I ever revealed things about myself (which he would have used later against me I'm sure), that he began to resent all the "gentlemanly" gestures when he thought I didn't deserve them anymore, and that when I thought we were getting closer he was already bored of me.
I think if you got a weird feeling, it was probably right. Don't be like me and ignore that feeling.
Too heavy for a first date. Too much time spent on the topic, and his long pause was weird, dramatic and sounds passive aggressive. He should have been prepared for this very basic question. He sounds like a difficult and emotionally needy person.
Remember that a favourite tactic of abusers is the "perfect gentleman" routine. Another common tactic is too much, too soon, and working to establish sympathy. Your gut is giving you important information: listen to it.
While I am usually quick to jump on the cynical bandwagon and assume a man is behaving badly when he does something unusual, this actually sounds okay. I agree with you that getting overly emotional can be a huge waving red flag and I also think you should trust your instincts. If it feels off, it probably is. But just based on what you have described, I wouldn't discount him yet if everything else was good. On a first date with a very nice man, I asked the usual questions about his family and if he had any children. He revealed that his daughter had died of brain cancer some years before, and of course got a little choked up as he told me. I didn't hold that against him because any decent parent would have the same reaction when talking about their own child's death. In fact it would have been odd if he had told me emotionlessly or not told me at all.
So go with your gut but I don't think this is necessarily a bad sign. Just my $0.02.
Also, is this story really true? I don’t know if someone really has to move to the USA for a cancer treatment coming from Europe. Besides, why would he continue living in the USA after her death.. This is all readily weird. I live abroad and the first question everyone makes me is why are you here? He would be used to that question.. Imagine him reacting like that every time someone asks him that. I get asked that question 5 times a week, anywhere. Bank, stores, at work etc etc
I've been mulling over this post. I have to wonder if it were reversed and you spent 20 minutes talking about your deceased mother to a man you just met, would that man continue to pursue you? Would he show empathy and compassion? Or would he be turned off and detached and cold? Would he judge you for sharing your trauma and being so emotional? Would he view you as unstable and "too much"? Would he ghost you? I think a lot of men would run the other way. In this day and age, we as women must be so protective of our hearts. We must only be vulnerable with men who have earned it. No, we don't want to turn off our humanity, but we can be deeply damaged if we trust too quickly. Our emotional sides are used against us. I lost a parent as a teen. If it came up on a first date, I would briefly mention it but i definitely would not go on for 20 minutes about it and share photos. Trust your gut and continue to vet. You've been through a lot. Maybe keep us updated about this guy.
Having sad emotions and crying about your mom dying during a deeply personal conversation with someone you’ve known a long time and trust is one thing. Turning into a blubbering little crybaby on a first date with a woman is completely another. Ditch this dork, damn. Your gut is already telling you this guy is fucked.
Listen to your intuition, mama. We have them as women for a reason. We've been socially conditioned to ignore our body intuition, that ends us up in horrendous situations. Two years of losing a mother may still feel fresh to someone who might've had an especially close relationship with her, but it's like you said, it is always concerning to have someone react so emotionally like that to a very simple question. I think he needs to not date for a little while longer and see a professional to process his grief instead of going out with women.
We are not rehabilitation centers for men and their feelings. Remember that.
Trust your gut. Would you tell someone you just met about your parent who passed a few years ago? I wouldn’t. That’s for friends and loved ones and for therapy.
I totally understand if it made you uncomfortable (would totally make me) and idk if he even told you sorry for getting carried away.
There is nothing wrong or weird about asking why someone moved to the country.
I think you did everything right. Trust your gut.
2 years have gone by and he’s crying on date 1? Did he say why he didn’t return to his lovely country?
Don’t let your fears and anxieties cloud your instinct and good judgment. I was in a similar situation, I was excessively suspicious due to my fears based on a previous relationship with a mythomaniac. Only thought to check the man’s social media after I had already pushed him away. It was all true. I’ll never know if I ruined a good thing. We have to give them time to show themselves so we can vet. We have to find a balance, we can’t let ourselves be fooled but we can’t be impossible to connect with because that’ll push a good one away (yes I also watched iliza’s this is not happening story and it was playing in my head as he told me about his mothers death)
Narc ALERT.
Please be careful he sounds like a textbook narcissist and they can be dangerous.
They usually use a sob story right away to hook you and get you to put your guard down. The B-movie acting drama pause when you asked him a very common question sent off alarm bells. Your intuition that something about the whole thing was off should be heeded. Trust me I have dealt with two of these psychos and they are master manipulators.
If you continue to speak to this person be very careful and on high alert.