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If a man doesn't ask you out to dinner and pay he's not into you.
There's no effort, investment or consideration. He'd never take his dream girl for a drink, coffee or a walk. He'd want to impress her.
If he's comfortable trying to go in for a kiss on the first date, then this man absolutely does NOT like you at all. You're a target for some form of free labour, be it sexual, cleaning, cooking, a temp gf to subsidize his expenses 50/50. This is a very in your face indication that this man does not like or respect you. He may not even be very physically attracted to you. A man who really likes you also won't try to go in for a hug on the first date. Infact he'd be terrified to touch you. You should have a month or two of completely platonic dates. My best friend who is married to an HVM said he waited two months to kiss her.
If you have a crisis in your life and he's not willing to be there for you or even wait to date you, then he's not into you. I know these seem obvious but you can fast track scrote elimination by turning down coffee , walk and drink dates immediately. Do NOT try to to correct this behaviour and suggest a dinner date. This man already decided you were not worthy of the bare minimum and will put a mask on in the beginning which will eventually start to slip and waste your time.
My first ex asked me out to coffee. I think I was more of a passing infatuation. Later on I came to know that he would take his first ex on dinner dates and take care of her
financially. He thought she was the one.
l had a whirlwind brief romance abroad. He asked me on a drinks date. I can look back at it years later and say I fell madly in love during that brief time that I spent with him. He very cleverly and subtley pressured me to sleep with him after the first date. After going through something intense together, me asking him for the bare minimum was an utter inconvenience for him. A few months later he met "The One." They dated for a month but never kissed. He always planned wholesome, meaningful dates for them. She struggled with mental health and an eating disorder and fainted on one of their dates. He took her home, took care of her and she had to go back to her home country to recover and get therapy for 5 or so months. He wanted to stay friends and support her during this tough time. Once she was back doing better, they started dating and became official. He waited nearly half a year for this girl, calling her weekly and being a support system for her. Two years later they're engaged and he got the type of thing he knew she'd approve of I'm embarrassed when I remember begging for the bare minimum. This same man didn't even end things properly with me. He left things unfinished between us and brutally cut me off. And all this could have been avoided had I known to decline a drinks date.
My second and most recent ex also asked me on a drinks date as our first date. After that it was all lovebombing with dinners and gifts but the man turned out to be diagnosed narc.
All these men felt comfortable initiating a kiss the first time they met me.
When I had been on dates with men who really liked me a lot or found me very attractive, they were terrified to touch me.
FDS warnings against initial low effort seems to be iterative. But let my mentioned experiences serve as cautionary tales. Early elimination of low effort scrotes can save you expensive therapy, lots of money, your youth and years of pain. Thankfully I have now decentred men and I'm happy. It was not an easy journey. But I think reflection, learning and passing on lessons us important. I wish I knew these things in my late teens/early 20s.
I don't know whether "not kissing for two months" is a hard and fast rule here, but it boils down to: yes, he should be scared to mess up. If it feels too casual, it's because he doesn't really want you. You're just convenient. And he should stay eager to please you and anxious about doing the wrong thing even after you're official. However, when it comes to LVM who apparently "change" for their dream woman, rest assured that they'll be back to their scrotey ways before long. Yes, they try harder for a woman who makes t wait / presents more of a challenge, but once they lock her down, it's the same old shit as always. A HVM always brings his A game because he has integrity, even when he's not with his "dream girl". Maybe some extra special treatment will be reserved for "The One" but they don't treat every other woman like disposable trash.
I know it's mentioned to avoid low effort dates, but I have met LVM in the past who splurged from the jump on dinners and drove me everywhere etc but I was just a fling to them. I've also went on coffee and drink dates and the guy was super nervous and couldn't even form a sentence so seemed a lot more into me than the ones who splurged. I guess it depends but all we can do is give it time to wait for the mask to drop. These LVM go in to torture their 'the one' so I'm not at all envious of the naive women they go on to marry or commit to, I feel sorry for them that now they've got a massive problem on their hands and will also wind up used and abused. It's not at all flattering to be chosen by a LVM abuser, if anything that just says the woman is a LVW. LVM will NOT choose a woman who refuses to be a doormat or punching bag. The reason they put in higher efforts for some is they see them as more easily manipulated and fooled than you so they put all their energy into roping in that poor soul. You just dodged an abuser. That's all.
These are 1000% correct observations. When I was still on the apps, I'd oftentimes go to dinner dates right after I already had my own dinner and just order something light or skip food completely, excusing myself with "I'm not in a mood for any of these items on the menue". Those men who were really interested apologized and BEGGED for another chance to impress me and go to a fancier restaurant for the second date. They were also very respectful with no exception, didn't try to touch me or invade my physical space. Never questioned my food or drink choices (I rarely have alcohol, it's just not my thing), and never, ever let me pay for anything. Consistently very courteous, gentle and considerate behavior overall.
Those who were looking for anything but a mutually respectful relationship always give themselves away by trying to negotiate, attempting bait and switch, get physical too quickly and displaying any sort of inconsistent, dismissive, and disrespectful behavior.
It's simple: If he is into you, you'll know. If he's not, you'll be confused.
May I ask, how do you know all these details about your exes new relationships? It sounds like the sort of things we block and delete for, so we don't have to hear them. It's still triangulation.
So…I’ve been on both sides of the kiss thing. I’ve been in relationships where he kissed me the first date and ones where he waited a while. I absolutely prefer first date. If he’s an awful kisser, I don’t want to waste a month or two to find that out. I also find it’s a great test in & of itself-does he stop at a kiss or does he immediately try for sex? In the relationship where he waited a long time to kiss me, it turned out that we were super incompatible sexually & I wish I had known that sooner.