Bitterness towards men, and where to draw the line

I think “bitterness” is a totally expected stage of the grief in realizing that the state of men today is completely and absolutely abysmal. Since my mindset shift (about a two-year journey thus far), I’ve really had a shift in the friends I spend my time with. Frankly I love shit-talking men lol, especially with women who feel the same. I spend much less time with friends, and have far less in-depth conversations with them if they have pick-me ways. They know if they bring up boyfriend drama my response is “dump his ass.” In my circle, pick-me-ism is so ingrained I can’t convert them, and perhaps it’s not my place. I’d just rather surround myself with like-minded women. Bitterness is not necessarily hopelessness. When people say “bitter” to me, they’re saying I’m not a doormat who forgives men for everything, like I “should”. What they are seeing is a high-maintenance woman with expectations of behavior, who can’t be bothered with male sob stories, and a general disappointment and unforgiving attitude around the shitty behavior of men. So, I’d say, be bitter! You have every right to be. Men are fucking shit and don’t deserve our grace, leeway, or understanding. They need to be better, like women strive to be, or are required to be. I have absolutely zero sympathy for male sob stories. And women in their pick-me-ism, I pity in some ways like they’re a kidnap victim with Stockholm syndrome, and I can only be around that for so long.

Edited to add: my favorite thing about being around like-minded women is that we LAUGH about shitty men. It feels powerful. I understand the negative mindset can get overwhelming and sometimes we don’t want to hang out in that mental space. But being able to laugh about pathetic, overly-emotional idiots has really helped.

Ehhh, she's definitely not coming from a pragmatic perspective- I'd take it as a compliment for her to call me bitter. And you have your child to think of- you can't afford to let a man derail your life or your kids. Be as bitter as you like, you've got more to think of than how you can handle being hurt.

I agree that bitterness isn’t healthy for us. It’s good be realistic about men, which I think you are. You haven’t closed yourself off to the possibility of a HVM, you just don’t think you can find on thru OLD (which I strongly agree with). If you’d said that you were consumed by feelings of bitterness over your past encounters with men to the point it was affecting your day to day life, then I would suggest counseling, but that doesn’t appear to be the case. I think it’s good that you’ve learned from your past experiences and know that most men will cause harm if you let them. I think your outlook is way healthier than your friend’s. She sounds like she’s internalized so much misogyny that she’s going to do everything in her power to rationalize and perpetuate it. She sounds like someone you shouldn’t be listening to.

i'm as bitter as the men i've gotten involved with have made me. our bitterness is their fault. we out here trying to survive, sis. if bitterness saves my life, if it saves me the trouble of adding yet another trauma to my CV, then i'll take it! i'll take bitter, hell yeah! it's not bitterness, it's self defense. our brains identify patterns and estimate results. although it's not 100% accurate all the time, it works pretty well to keep me safe.

"Anyways, here I am, still single, and nearly traumatized to the point that I am afraid of meeting more men"

same here. i've had enough. i felt like shit, always depressed and trying to understand what the hell was wrong with me that no man wanted to take me seriously or respect me. it was so difficult to navigate the dating pool when i simply couldn't win no matter what i did or say. i was never good enough. and the sexual trauma will never be gone. everytime i gave a man a chance, it got worse and worse. after i gave up, my life opened up to me. i'm happier, healthier, more optimistic (about other aspects of life, not dating hahaa), have better self esteem, take better care of myself, everything is better.

Well she sounds like a supreme pick me. I don’t know if she’ll ever see the way as she forgave a man for getting her friend pregnant. All these men that go on and on about catching feelings are being manipulative too. So she’s just in her 30s constantly being manipulated and acting like shes so special to these men but really they just take advantage. She sounds very naive. it shouldn’t bother you that she’s called you bitter. You’re probably not being bitter. ive been called bitter too, even though I am pretty optimistic when it comes to dating. I get called bitter because I speak and see the truth. Lots of women don’t want to hear it because I think when you see men for who they are it’s actually very sad. So they’re just happy to live in la la land.

but yeah, be proud that you are a bitter woman

I think your friend is a PickMe who is trying heal from her own trauma by minimizing it. She has limited empathy for herself and projects her lack of empathy on you, because at the end of the day you can’t give what you don’t have. People like this often end up desperately unhappy and resentful and can’t understand why. Be careful.

I can relate. I read The Tragedy of Heterosexuality by Jane Ward and it was really validating. She talks about how tiring it is, not only living under patriarchy and heteronormative society, but also how tiring it is to be around women such as your friend.

From my perspective you are being real, and she is naive/brainwashed. When the bitterness seeps into your everyday life, that's when you should probably just refocus on things that really make you happy - but the solution is not to be like your friend and pretend that we should be concerned about mens issues and problems.

Now you know not to consider her opinion seriously.

Ever since I became “bitter,” I’ve not been f*cked over by a male. It was the “Pollyanna“ type thinking that your pick me friend is doing that got me into so much trouble. The Cult of Positive Thinking is absolutely abysmal. Men treat women like total trash, but then you get blamed for his bad treatment, because you weren’t “positive enough,” “you didn’t vibrate at the level of love,” “you left the vortex.” Bitch, please. My father and schizophrenic uncle started the abuse, and my ex husband and every other man who’s ever pretended to like me finished it. My schizophrenic uncle is literally in the insane asylum for strangling my grandma and attacking my father with an axe. These evil men and their Pickmeisha sycophants can ALL miss me with that sh1t. I’m not gonna skip around in a meadow like that dude who’s pretending to be a girl in the news after what I’ve seen of men. Let the men have each other. They don’t GAF about women anyway. The only reason to date and marry a man is for his money these days, and that means keeping your heart to yourself and whiling away as much cash as you can into your own accounts while you’re with him for when he cheats, abuses you, and wants to leave you with nothing. Be forewarned.

Being a bitter Queen with boundaries and high standards is better than a pick me or a doormat for men to use and step on. Stay better love, and keep vetting. I’m in the same situation as you but my life has been so peaceful with no dating so far. I go out, do activities, new hobbies, meet people everywhere … I love it ☺️ I also do salsa dancing and dance with different men during the lesson and it’s been great. Safe environment, no one being weird or disrespectful and I get some masculine energy. Then I go home happy and fulfilled that I learned a new dance 💃

Just remember bitterness is a taste in someone else’s mouth. Be too much; they’re not enough.

She’s gaslighting herself. I’m a positive Pollyanna type person and I look back on my relationships and try to focus on the lesson learned or what I gained rather than the awful things but that doesn’t mean I deny any of the awful things about them. My ex-husband the porn and gambling addict taught me some signs to watch out for. I’m grateful for the sperm that made my wonderful son so don’t regret the relationship but all of my gratitude centres on it helping me become the person I am now with the standards and values I have and none of it is about him as an individual. It sounds like she’s trying to gloss over the bad stuff because it’s easier that way. I can only be the positive person I am because I faced up to all the bad stuff and the role I played in letting it happen (by which I mean not leaving as soon as it started, no woman deserves to be treated badly), picked through the wounds in therapy and took responsibility for my life. You can’t skip through the hurt get to to the good bit, that’s just delusional wishful thinking.

Interesting how the word “bitter” is almost exclusively used against women, and especially women unhappy living under the current patriarchal status quo. Above all, they want us placid and happy, because happy people don’t need to ask for anything. They don’t demand change. Your friend basically just pulled a “why don’t you just smile more?”

I would FORGIVE a guy for getting another girl pregnant because I am religious and God tells us to forgive those that hurt us. But that doesn’t mean I would say I appreciate having had him around. Forgiveness doesn’t mean he’s a good guy. It just means I let go of that rage and don’t seek revenge.

Bitterness, in my opinion, would be constantly dwelling on the shittiness of men instead of trying to move on and focus on what is in our own control. Simply acknowledging the fact that most men suck might be little jaded, but not necessarily bitter. We've been disappointed and we would need strong counter examples to balance our views. It's not our own responsibility to assume the best when all we've been shown is the worst. There are better men out there? Well they're going to have to show themselves, otherwise I'm not seeing them.

Lucy is drinking the koolaid. Most men are trash and that doesn’t make you bitter to acknowledge that unless you care desperately about having a relationship and are constantly talking about men all the time.

Lucy is projecting her own goodness onto men. She couldn’t accept men for how they really are. If there was anyone bitter, it was Lucy.

I feel like shani silver might be a good voice for you. She has a podcast on patreon, I think older episodes are free still on iTunes. Also she is on TikTok and wrote a really good book. I think she will have some good words of support and encouragement. She talks a lot about the “bitter” trope and does a lot of dismantling of dating and societal expectations. She reframes single hood and dating in a really helpful positive way.

Good for her I guess. Do you have any other friends you could be around instead of her?