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I will say up front that if anyone thinks I need an attitude adjustment, my mind is open.
A day or so ago, I posted on Facebook on one of those tag groups that show just how insane and crappy men are when they message (hi, how are you, something something, MUH PENIS -- hilarious and cringey every time). I posted about how all these men are just pathetic and pitiful and yet, somehow, I am actually still attracted to men. I want to date. I want to find companionship, even though men are just (gestures vaguely)... themselves in this pornified world. That's the backstory.
Someone called me out for being classist; I ended up owning it. The vast majority of men who contact me (online in chat, various programs) do seem to be second language speakers, and I find this a turn off. I own that I want a man who is just as stellar as I am at communication. I will not teach any man English; I despise the teacher/student (mother/son) dynamic, and refuse to be Barb the Builder with any man. It's an unequal yoke, so no thanks.
I have a BA and an MA; late husband was a UCLA English prof. I sincerely believe a second-language speaker who is also male would end up resenting the hell out of me simply for being more fluent, a natural communicator. Men in general like the *idea* of a smart woman, but don't like smart women in reality. I think when he realized he could not keep up with me, he could very well turn abusive. On the flip side, I can't imagine being with a Spanish man, with my only initially fluent Spanish. There's no way I could keep up at all. We couldn't really have conversations. It just wouldn't be an equal partnership.
That said, when one of these men starts chatting, I say to him, hey, I'm noticing many little errors in grammar. Is English your native language? Partly it's to see if he's truthful; partly to see where he's from, what his background is as a way to know him more. Great if he straight-up owns it and says no, my first language is __. But when they keep on with the mistakes, and it's pretty obvious it's not just speaking fluent typonese... I get suspicious.
So, queens, is it classist? Is being a language snob a bad thing? By the way, that's the most I do, is ask if English is a man's first language. I don't correct; I don't talk down or change how I speak. I just note his response and then sit back and judge how well or not so well the rest of the conversation goes. And I figure if he lies about this first minor thing, he'll lie about everything else, too. Thoughts? Thanks.
The correct term is linguicism, not classism. And you're allowed to do it because your vagina is not an equal opportunity democracy, as a wise FDSer once said.
I believe this isn't a classist standard, but rather an intellectual one.
It seems that for a man to be compatible with you, he must be able to communicate eloquently to connect with you effectively. So, even if he were a native English speaker, a relationship wouldn't work unless he matched your cognitive level in communication, correct? Totally valid, ignore the haters. :)
So what if it is labeled classist...
You have the right to decide what you want in a date/friend/husband etc
And you don't have to explain why
Every time I've had the term "classist" used against me, it's been to standard shame or "bring me down a peg" by someone who has no business doing so.
If wanting something to be a certain way makes me classist, then classist be I.
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Seems reasonable not wanting a big language barrier. What that looks like might vary for different people. I know several HV couples in real life who learned each other languages and communicate beautifully. So the bar for that is definitely subjective. But having a need for fluent communication seems just fair to me. This could be an issue even when speaking the same language. Everyone should be free to set their own standards in this regard. It's not like there's a racist or classist motive behind what you're saying. It's like saying that not wanting to date men with certain mental issues is ableist.. Thing is, I'm not a charity or an equal opportunity employer. I'm allowed to discern what I can and can't tolerate in my intimate life and so does everyone, as long as they don't weaponize it. Typical example: man claims to have a standard, instead of looking for a woman who is right for him, will date below his standard and then psychologically torture you because you're not his ideal woman. Unless you're leading on second language speakers and humiliating them for their language skills (I don't think so), there's no way you're being classist.
I think it is a very reasonable standard to want a partnership without a language barrier that hinders clear communication and makes engaging and interesting conversations more difficult (if not outright impossible). Even if one partner is a native speaker and the other is 90% fluent there will still be nuances they don't get, idioms they don't initially grasp and the whole cultural aspect and background you have in your native language.
I speak multiple languages pretty well but I would still find that situation really frustrating in both roles. As the native speaker because I have to invest more time and effort into explaining things, rephrasing things more clearly etc. and as the non-native speaker because no matter how well you have learned a language there are still nuances you miss and moments when you struggle to express your feelings or opinions clearly, especially when you are stressed. I honestly think the only way I could imagine a relationship with someone who doesn't share my native language would be if our shared language was a second language to both of us that we both speak equally well to put us on more or less equal ground. And I would still be wary if I don't speak their native language well because that would make hiding things from me a lot easier.
And let's not forget that many people would also expect their spouse to take on all chores and tasks that involve communicating in said language if the spouse is the native speaker. No thanks.
It’s not classist at all. You are at a specific intellectual level, so you want someone at the same level. Not only that, but frequent typos and misspellings indicate that a man isn’t putting much effort into what he’s saying; he’s just trying to respond faster. I always proof-read anything I post or text before I hit send (and even then, I still make a few typos), so if a man isn’t even paying attention to his grammar and spelling, then it shows he doesn’t care about how he comes across.
I don’t want to be with someone if there is a language barrier.
Surely if you’re choosing YOUR life partner, you can choose based on whatever you want. They’re the person you’re choosing. For yourself.
What’s one person’s dealbreaker or standard, might not be for someone else. Doesn’t make you a classist!
If your thoughts are private -- if you only commented (on your group) that men's messages are cringey and penis-focused, but that you're still attracted to men and would still like to have a relationship with a good one -- how the heck is someone taking that comment and leaping to "You're classist!" It doesn't sound like you even mentioned languages differences in your backstory -- just scrotery.
i think that being classist and having prejudices about a persons accent or lack of fluency is a bad thing. but you're talking about men and they are shitty in all languages. when it comes to sex and relationships, you are allowed to have preferences. bad grammar turns you off and you keep treating the person with politeness, so it's ok in my opinion. i think that we all must seek to become better people while we are alive, but at the same time i also believe we don't need to like everybody all the time. respect for all cultures is one thing. wasting time with people you dont't want to be around. i just hope you're not like that when talking to any person from a different country in a context where love and relationships aren't the goal. also, careful to not project. i say that because you said you think you wouldn't be able to keep up if it was you trying to speak a second language.
I am a non-native English speaker, but I am a professional writer as well, so if a man makes this out to be a problem I'll be really surprised. But only because I consider my command over the language as good as that of a native speaker (if not better). However, this is not true for all non-native English speakers. Some of us are fluent enough to write books, content, and give speeches. Some can barely construct a sentence. There's definitely a spectrum. Seems like you were only exposed to the ones who can't communicate in the English language effectively. It's classist/racist to assume everyone is like that, but it's not classist to reject a man because he couldn't speak proper English.
It's not about class, it's wanting somebody who has the same native language as you. There's a ton of professors in US who don't have English as their first language, you still wouldn't want to date them.
How can language preference be classist? Maybe xenophobic is the right word? Or Pedantic?
The question in itself is classist by whomever first suggested it. It’s almost inferring that any non English language is somehow equivalent to lower class… am I wrong?